Discussion:
Lms 7.8?
(too old to reply)
bobertuk
2012-03-13 10:31:58 UTC
Permalink
Following a hint in another thread :)

Is LMS 7.8 just a continuation of 7.7 bug fixes or is there going to be
anything new?

If there is something new going into 7.8 any news/hints about what
it/they will be?

Bob


--
bobertuk

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1 x Boom
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Michael Herger
2012-03-13 10:45:03 UTC
Permalink
> Is LMS 7.8 just a continuation of 7.7 bug fixes or is there going to be
> anything new?

It will be a major update.

> If there is something new going into 7.8 any news/hints about what
> it/they will be?

Make the thing nicer to use. Eg. my first checkin to SP 7.8 is to loosen
the upgrade/downgrade mechanism: when 7.8.0 is being released, but you
prefer to stick with 7.7.7 for a while, you might no longer see the
firmware screen whenever you switch from LMS to mysb.com.

If LMS still has that name by then anyway :-).

--

Michael
bobertuk
2012-03-13 10:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Michael.


mherger;695588 Wrote:
>
>
> If LMS still has that name by then anyway :-).
>
> Michael

Intriguing...


Bob


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1 x Boom
Lavry DA-10 DAC
QNAP TS-509 3.5.1 build 1002T
Starfish Pre-amp : Based on NAIM
Heavily modified NAIM NAP 250 Power-amp
Behringer DEQ2496
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MrSinatra
2012-03-14 04:48:03 UTC
Permalink
i think it would make a lot of sense for you guys to implement some bugs
that have a lot of votes, why not do that? do you guys care about votes
or no?

also, the antique home>whatever method sucks, as does the "one master
list" that doesn't allow to browse by artist, or AA, or whatever on the
fly.

why not redesign that so that there are a couple of default sort
methods and user made sort methods?


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Michael Herger
2012-03-14 05:21:32 UTC
Permalink
> i think it would make a lot of sense for you guys to implement some bugs
> that have a lot of votes, why not do that? do you guys care about votes
> or no?

We do. Probably not at the level some might want us to care, but still.
Keep in mind that even 100 votes only represent a very small fraction of
our users. Other important channels are eg. the questionnaire every new
customer is invited to fill in after he registers for a product.

--

Michael
gharris999
2012-03-14 07:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Michael: for those of us who like to follow along at home, would you be
willing to give us your best guess as to when we'll see enough changes
that it will be worth running the new svn code? A week? Two weeks?
Or would you rather not have us peering over your shoulder quite yet?

I, for one, always find it gratifying to watch you guys try out new
ideas.


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Michael Herger
2012-03-14 08:19:48 UTC
Permalink
> Michael: for those of us who like to follow along at home, would you be
> willing to give us your best guess as to when we'll see enough changes
> that it will be worth running the new svn code? A week? Two weeks?

I don't expect major changes in the next few weeks. We're only getting
started. The aforementioned change re. firmware downgrades might be the
biggest change for a while :-). But feel free to use it! We're thankful
for every early tester we get.

> Or would you rather not have us peering over your shoulder quite yet?

Nah, the code is publicly available. Don't expect to see the secret new
features in there :-P.

--

Michael
Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-14 13:05:51 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695679 Wrote:
> > i think it would make a lot of sense for you guys to implement some
> bugs
> > that have a lot of votes, why not do that? do you guys care about
> votes
> > or no?
>
> We do. Probably not at the level some might want us to care, but still.
>
> Keep in mind that even 100 votes only represent a very small fraction
> of
> our users. Other important channels are eg. the questionnaire every new
>
> customer is invited to fill in after he registers for a product.
>
> --
>
> Michael

And the larger fraction live with the bugs and or don't know how to
file a bug report or vote on one.


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Michael Herger
2012-03-14 13:18:21 UTC
Permalink
> And the larger fraction live with the bugs and or don't know how to
> file a bug report or vote on one.

They can get in touch with support. Support probably can't help, but they
would raise issues if they got repeated complaints about the same problem.

--

Michael
MrSinatra
2012-03-14 20:12:34 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695679 Wrote:
> > i think it would make a lot of sense for you guys to implement some
> bugs
> > that have a lot of votes, why not do that? do you guys care about
> votes
> > or no?
>
> We do. Probably not at the level some might want us to care, but still.
>
> Keep in mind that even 100 votes only represent a very small fraction
> of
> our users. Other important channels are eg. the questionnaire every new
>
> customer is invited to fill in after he registers for a product.
> --
> Michael

i have to say, that while i appreciate your honesty, this is the worst
possible response b/c it just goes to show you guys ignore feedback.

first of all, there is only one bug with 100 votes. so by your
measure, no bug means anything, b/c no bug has enough votes to matter.

secondly, its nonsense to disregard votes. presidential polling that
is ACCURATE is only a small fraction of the overall population,
sometimes not even 1000 in the sample for a country of over 300
MILLION. bug votes are the same thing. and the barriers to bug voting
need to be kept in mind.

your answer, to me, says: "we do NOT care about voting, b/c it isn't
representative of anything statistically important."

that is a SAD state of affairs imo. and it means you guys aren't
taking cues from users.

mherger;695743 Wrote:
> > And the larger fraction live with the bugs and or don't know how to
> > file a bug report or vote on one.
>
> They can get in touch with support. Support probably can't help, but
> they
> would raise issues if they got repeated complaints about the same
> problem.
> --
> Michael

wow, wonderful. number 1, support has nothing to do with certain bugs
or enhancements. people aren't going to call support over bug 142 for
instance, which you call one of the oldest and most popular bugs.

support is for immediate showstopping issues. votes on bug tracker
meanwhile should absolutely help guide the road map, as they are a good
idea of whats important to the SB population. i'm not saying they
should rule alone, but you guys need to stop IGNORING them, which is
what has gone on for YEARS now.


--
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www.lion-radio.org
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Michael Herger
2012-03-14 20:30:13 UTC
Permalink
> i have to say, that while i appreciate your honesty, this is the worst
> possible response b/c it just goes to show you guys ignore feedback.

I know it's a waste of time to even type this if it were only for you,
MrSinatra. But it's more for other visitors than you...

As we both know you will never accept what I say and you don't like. Thus
there's no need to try to explain. But here I go anyway:

We do care. But bugzilla is only one way to give us feedback. Support is
another one. That survey I mentioned yet one more. And as bugzilla by far
is the most geeky way to submit wishes and issue reports to any company,
this is only one way of input which is taken into account when new
development is planned.

This doesn't mean it's useless. But it's not all that counts.

> secondly, its nonsense to disregard votes.

Agreed. That's why we sort our bug reviews by votes every know and then.
You don't have to believe me. I don't expect you to do so.

> wow, wonderful. number 1, support has nothing to do with certain bugs
> or enhancements. people aren't going to call support over bug 142 for
> instance, which you call one of the oldest and most popular bugs.

Users aren't going to google the internet to figure out there is such a
thing as bugzilla for Squeezebox feature requests.

I'm sorry you're always so depressed and frustrated by whatever I type and
do. Maybe you should put me on your blacklist and simply ignore me.

--

Michael
MrSinatra
2012-03-14 21:00:39 UTC
Permalink
making it personal when i said NOTHING of a personal nature is immature,
and deflects the actual points i was making that are valid and strictly
business. please, keep it on topic, don't obfuscate.

i have nothing against you, i appreciate the responses believe it or
not. i know you don't feel likewise, but so be it.

in any case, i'm not alone in feeling like you guys aren't taking cues
from bugs, forums posts, whatever. you can't have it both ways,
meaning u can't in one breath say bugs and votes matter, then say they
don't. surely you see the inherent contradictions in your own
statements?

to me, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, actions. bugs
like 142 or 15604 or a handful of others have a lot of votes, yet they
are ignored. if u guys would commit to even doing just ONE highly
voted bug per release, i think you would not only see a huge sea change
in peoples attitudes, but you would encourage a lot more voting (and
therefore a more relevant sample size) in the process.

but in order for that to happen, u guys need to commit to that and then
deliver. so thats the question to u i pose:

WILL YOU GUYS COMMIT TO IMPLEMENTING AT LEAST ONE TOP TEN VOTED BUG PER
OFFICIAL RELEASE GOING FORWARD?

i think its a fair question.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
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Michael Herger
2012-03-14 21:14:08 UTC
Permalink
> in any case, i'm not alone in feeling like you guys aren't taking cues

Please define "you guys".

It has been stated over and over again: this is a community forum. If you want to complain to Logitech, go to forums.logitech.com.

Some stupid guys like me try to bridge the two worlds. But you make the experience more than frustrating at times. We're the good guys. Without us this forum would have been closed years ago. As well as the wiki. And bugzilla. Think about it.

--

Michael
MrSinatra
2012-03-14 21:18:50 UTC
Permalink
i'm not attacking you personally, and without us you guys wouldn't have
jobs doing this stuff. 'you guys' to me = anyone who is connected to
creating this stuff.

and you dodged my question:

*will you guys commit to implementing at least ONE top ten voted bug
per official release going forward?*


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
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d-link dir-655 - 55k+ mp3/flac
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
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erland
2012-03-14 22:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Guys, please stop before this thread goes completely out of hand, we
need to consider a few things.

1.
Without Michael, Andy and the other old Slim Devices employees the
Squeezebox product wouldn't exist today, they have not only spend their
working hours on this product they have also been visible on the forum
more or less 365 days of the year, day and night. As Michael says, they
are the good guys. And for Michael, most of us really appreciate all
your hard work and the fact that you keep fighting for these products.
I personally also appreciate that you dare to say the things you've
said earlier in this thread, even though you know it might make some
people upset because they interpret it the wrong way.


2.
There are other factors than geeky community members like most of us on
these forums to consider when deciding what to to include in the next
product release, for example:
- Problems which users calls Logitech support regarding costs money for
Logitech support organization and due to this they are important.
- Features that are able to sell more Squeezeboxes are important
because it makes the Squeezebox not just a successful product but also
a product which gives Logitech something back economically.

It might be boring to think in economical terms, but those are still
the ones that controls most companies in the world we live in. In any
professional company products that makes a good economical result stays
and products that don't will disappear.


3.
However, it's not possible to use support organization for getting
ideas of most wanted new features or changes in functionality, because
people don't call support for these kind of things. It might be
possible to use the review forms from new users to get some ideas but
it's important to understand that most of these users haven't
understood what the product is all about yet, they have just started
their Squeezebox journey and might not have realized what's important
on longer terms yet. Some issues are only an issue during the first
month and after that you realize that you can work your way around it
and even though correcting such issue will make the first month more
enjoyable it's not these kind of things that sells more Squeezeboxes.
On the other hand, long term users like most of us tends to have
problems to think outside the box, we can sometimes be stuck in old
principles and don't see new ways of handling things, this also applies
to long term employees by the way.

I think the important new features has to come from other sources,
like:
- From long term users which understands the product, but is able to
think outside the box
- From creative employees and/or third party developers who understands
the needs

The issue is that it's not possible to use "votes" in bugzilla for this
because a vote is just a vote and you have no idea why people have voted
on something and you have no idea if they have actually fully understood
the consequences before voting. It's also hard to use the public forum
for things like this because sometimes you can't say what you want
because someone who aren't understanding the context might see it and
will interpret it the wrong way and threads will turn completely off
topic and end up in endless discussions about things that aren't
important.

The forum sections which have been used during some hardware beta
testing where all people with access also have signed a NDA was a place
where things like this could be discussed, but unfortunately I believe
that kind of interaction no longer exist between Logitech and this
community. I personally still believe something like this would be a
good way to get good feedback, but anything that involves a NDA doesn't
work unless the management people also understand and likes the idea.

So the result is that for the last years all focus have been on point
2, decreasing costs and implementing basic new features which are easy
to advertize. However, while being easy to advertize, most of these
features doesn't really turn into usable features which makes you
recommend the Squeezebox to a friend.

I'm talking about the fact that most new stuff like premium services,
iOS/Android apps, facebook integration, Revue integrating tends to be
implemented to a basic level so they can be advertized on the box but
then nobody is continuing the development to make the features useful,
so people use them as an argument to recommend the Squeezebox to
friends.

Maybe I've missed things, but to me it feels like (with the exception
of critical bug corrections):
- Facebook integration is basically the same as it was in the first
release it was introduced.
- Spotify integration is basically the same as it was in the first
release it was introduced.
- iOS/Android Logitech apps is basically the same as they was in the
first release they were introcuded.
- Image/Video/UPnP support is basically the same as it was in the first
release it was introduced. Of course, it was introduced in 7.7, so maybe
Logitech will prove me wrong and do a lot of enhancements in this area
in 7.8, but probably not since the only reason they made it was to sell
more Revue's which they later decided to abandon completely.

I guess what I would like to see is that Logitech continue to develop
features they've already added and not just abandon them as soon as
they have enough to put a sticker on the box.

Regarding anything related to browsing or ratings/smart playlists, I've
just given up, I would be extremely surprised if Logitech would put any
focus in this area, because it's something that would make people
recommend the product but it's not something that's easy to advertize,
so it's not in line with what their strategy seems to be.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
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Michael Herger
2012-03-15 04:59:50 UTC
Permalink
> I guess what I would like to see is that Logitech continue to develop
> features they've already added and not just abandon them as soon as
> they have enough to put a sticker on the box.
>
> Regarding anything related to browsing or ratings/smart playlists, I've
> just given up, I would be extremely surprised if Logitech would put any
> focus in this area, because it's something that would make people
> recommend the product but it's not something that's easy to advertize,
> so it's not in line with what their strategy seems to be.

Remember my initial response? Nothing earth shakingly new I can promise
for 7.8. But improved UX. Some of what you wish for might actually be part
of the plan. Be prepared for the unexpected.

Oh, did we ever mention we're hiring?

http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oRydWfwi
http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oVydWfwm

--

Michael
erland
2012-03-15 05:21:26 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695879 Wrote:
>
> Oh, did we ever mention we're hiring?
>
> http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oRydWfwi
> http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oVydWfwm
>
Excellent news!


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
(http://license.isaksson.info))
Interested in music discovery ? See 'Social Music Discovery (SMD)'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=656713) project.
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MrSinatra
2012-03-15 06:27:08 UTC
Permalink
hopefully one of the jobs they'll do is implement ONE top ten voted bug
per official release.

but thats impossible or so i'm told.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
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win7 ie9 & xp pro sp3 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 -
d-link dir-655 - 55k+ mp3/flac
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
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Schindler
2012-03-15 09:50:40 UTC
Permalink
@Michael, did you move from Bern to Fremont, CA, United States?


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Michael Herger
2012-03-15 10:25:14 UTC
Permalink
> @Michael, did you move from Bern to Fremont, CA, United States?

I'd still be in bed then. But I'm rather heading out to have lunch soon
:-).

--

Michael
Jeff Flowerday
2012-03-18 22:29:40 UTC
Permalink
bits;696413 Wrote:
> I see some merit in erlands USB playback idea, but also then consider
> how many really have music carried around on USB. Perhaps for parties
> users would preplan bringing the once off music on a USB device. It
> would be nice to support considering the price paid for the Squeezebox.
>
> It would be much much more common that the music is on a smart phone or
> portable media player. The Boom has a line in which with a 3.5mm to
> 3.5mm would suit plugging into other devices headphone jack. It would
> be nice for a Touch2 to include a line in but you wont get integration
> with the device which makes the result not so awesome.
>
> Both of these scenarios wont be some magic feature that opens the doors
> for 5x the current userbase. They are niche features which would be nice
> to have for the 1 time you want it so that people can say "wow these
> Squeezebox's can do everything"
>
> PS the Touch already doesn't require the server for the clock so the
> always on server requirement is much looser than it once was.

A line in on a touch doesn't make much sense, it would the require a
analog to digital converter to use the digital out.


--
Jeff Flowerday


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simonjedrake
2012-03-15 13:58:53 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695879 Wrote:
> > Oh, did we ever mention we're hiring?
>
> http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oRydWfwi
> http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oVydWfwm
>
> Michael

This is the best piece of news I have seen on this forum for a VERY
long time.
I consider this to be a long term investment in the product line which
is desperately needed. I have used SS/SB products for nearly 10 years &
I enjoy the "geekiness" of the product, but I have a lot of rich friends
whose IT knowledge is limited to turning on their iPad. Sadly all these
friends are now on Sonus systems due to it's ease of
setup/maintenace/use.................
They are NOT interested in the lower sound quality, restricted menu
options, etc - they just want something that "runs" just like their
iPods, iPhones, iPads, etc. To the mp3 generation sound quality is also
NOT an issue which I know goes against the grain of most of the active
posters on this forum, but......!
So I hope this expanded development software team will be allowed to
take the product line into the high end Sonus market area as otherwise
I fear for just how long Logitech will continue with this product
before it is ditched!


--
simonjedrake

QNAP TS-239 (v 3.6.1 build 0302T). Seagate Barracuda ES 1000GB x 2.
SSOTS 4.12b SC 7.6.2-33593
2 x SB3, 1 x SB2, 1 x SB Controller, SB Radio & iPad/iPhone/iTouch with
iPeng/Spotify
QNAP TS-109 Pro (v 3.3.2 build 0918T & a QNAP TS-101 (v 2.5.0 build
1210T) for secondary backup.
Panasonic BL-C30 & Bl-C160 Cameras. Apple Airport Express.
iTunes Playlist Library. Netgear N600 Router
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bits
2012-03-16 13:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Powerful systems are complex. It is the nature of the beast.

I dont know how you can dumb down such a powerful product without just
making it not powerful.

Eg Android versus iPhone; is powerful versus not(but with a whole lot
of swanky features to compensate)


Every person I put onto Squeezebox NEVER looks back but always requires
a bit of assistance to really get to what they want from the product.
The more I think about it the more I feel there is no way this product
could do all it is requested to do without a geek customizing it to
what the user wants.

I'm a PABX programmer by trade and well all users pay a professional
like me to install and configure it for them. It is just a given with
the industry that it is that way you do it. No one is buying a PABX of
the computer store shelves, that is nonsense. You pay a brick layer to
lay your bricks straight; self install computer stuff is some weird
voodoo Microsoft created a decade ago. The quicker users get over it
the quicker the industry can move forward.

Somehow Logitech need to just tap into more users willing to pay
someone else to set it up for them?


--
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erland
2012-03-16 17:28:28 UTC
Permalink
bits;696079 Wrote:
> Powerful systems are complex. It is the nature of the beast.
>
> I dont know how you can dumb down such a powerful product without just
> making it not powerful.
>
Powerful at what ?

Powerful at supporting all possible configuration possibilities and
making it as fast as possible to scan your music library ?
or
Powerful at making it an easy and enjoyable experience to discover and
listen to music ?

I'd rather prefer the later and that's not where the focus has been
during the last years, the focus during last years has been very
technical and more about making the product more stable, decrease the
maintenance costs and make the scanner faster. There has been very
little focus on improving the functionality related to music
listening/discovery.

Sure, stability and correcting bugs are important, but will it result
in Logitech selling more Squeezeboxes ?
Maybe some through recommendations from forum members, but how do they
reach other users ? Can they use less bugs and faster scanner as an
argument to make your non technical friends select a Squeezebox ?

I think the single most important thing to get rid of is the computer.
There are two reasons which have stopped my friends to use the
Squeezebox:
1. The requirement to have a computer powered on (people don't have
stationary computer these days, they have tablets or laptops)
2. The requirement to rip all their CD-collection.

For youths the second point is not an issue because their collection
already is in electronic form, but for older people which have a large
CD or even LP collection it is.

The first point is an issue for most non technical users, but it's not
an issue for many community members, for us it's an advantage to have
the server on a computer since it means that we can easily improve it
by getting a better computer.

I also think many non technical users use the "Music Folder" view
instead of the other menus, mainly because it's too complicated for
them to correct the tags. Starting another program, finding the
incorrect track, correct it in a way so SBS/LMS understands it
properly, is not something non technical users want to spend time
doing. Of course, many non technical users also mostly use it for
streaming services and internet radio.

I think it's important that we start to think about what
features/changes are needed to make the Squeezebox attractive to our
non technical friends. If Logitech can't reach these users the
Squeezebox is going to die or be abandoned by Logitech, they aren't
going to continue to maintain a geek product, they want something which
they can use to expand to the masses.

Of course, the biggest issue at the moment is not limitations of the
product itself, it's the lack of marketing.


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finnbrodersen
2012-03-16 17:40:52 UTC
Permalink
erland;696105 Wrote:
> Powerful at what ?
>
> ....
>


+1, wise words, I agree 95% (or more)


--
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bits
2012-03-17 06:57:54 UTC
Permalink
erland;696105 Wrote:
>
> I think the single most important thing to get rid of is the computer.
> There are two reasons which have stopped my friends to use the
> Squeezebox:
> 1. The requirement to have a computer powered on (people don't have
> stationary computer these days, they have tablets or laptops)
> 2. The requirement to rip all their CD-collection.
>

Squeezebox supports connecting to mysqueezebox.com and using
subscription music services in regions where they are available.
Squeezebox has no requirement to have a PC anymore, you have a PC
because it has the files you want to play.

The fact is for most is they still do have a local media library.
It is local because:
-Lack of subscription services in many regions
-Internet connections to many mobile devices are not cost effective or
stable to use for music services.
-ongoing costs of subscription services versus own the music outright
so dont need to continue paying a subscription to access it.

And while they have a local media library the most common sense thing
for multiple devices to access that same library would be to have a
"server".

I dont think making Squeezebox double as a NAS is at all smart.
-It'll cost too much to buy
-It'll be too big and ugly
-many users already have a more powerful server to use

To have instant searching and abstraction of a local media library the
server software will need to scan the files and use a protocal that
suits. iTunes, WMP and every media player worth 2 cents scans the music
first.


A server is 100% going to be required by all products for hosting the
local files that users want and for software that allows for flexible
access to those files. When users dont want local files the server can
disappear, like is already possible with the Squeezebox product.


This forum has been regurgitating 2 ideas constantly which I find are
just totally wrong things some armchair expert forum user dreamed up
one day.

These 2 things need to be dropped already by this community because
they are just utter nonsense
1)Logitech is going to close down the Squeezebox product or other
similar ideas. This has run around in circles for a few years now, all
while more Squeezeboxes get released and still maintain their strong
price point.
2)Logitech need to make Squeezebox run without LMS. As stated this is
just a crazy insane idea. Squeezebox, like your ps3 or Samsung/Sony/LG
TV, play files from a server, that is how computers work.


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erland
2012-03-17 10:27:03 UTC
Permalink
bits;696137 Wrote:
>
> This forum has been regurgitating 2 ideas constantly which I find are
> just totally wrong things some armchair expert forum user dreamed up
> one day.
>
> These 2 things need to be dropped already by this community because
> they are just utter nonsense
> 1)Logitech is going to close down the Squeezebox product or other
> similar ideas. This has run around in circles for a few years now, all
> while more Squeezeboxes get released and still maintain their strong
> price point.
> 2)Logitech need to make Squeezebox run without LMS. As stated this is
> just a crazy insane idea. Squeezebox, like your ps3 or Samsung/Sony/LG
> TV, play files from a server, that is how computers work.
>
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Logitech needs to make Squeezebox
run without LMS, I'm just saying that they need to give people who don't
have a stationary computer to run LMS on an option.

Many of my non technical friends have purchased new computers during
the last 3 years but I think none of them got a stationary computer,
all got a laptop which is wifi connected. A wifi connected laptop which
usually runs on battery is not going to give them an enjoyable
Squeezebox experience.

These people either need a player which they can attach a USB drive to
directly or a separate server box with pre-installed LMS and a built-in
hard drive. However, the issue with a server box is that it's going to
get too expensive for them, so that solution won't work.

You can say that these people shouldn't use Squeezebox but then you are
also saying that Logitech should ignore at least 80% of the potential
market.


--
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(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
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If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
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bits
2012-03-17 12:23:52 UTC
Permalink
erland;696147 Wrote:
>
> You can say that these people shouldn't use Squeezebox but then you are
> also saying that Logitech should ignore at least 80% of the potential
> market.

I think that 80% of people are flooded with options and there is little
point for Logitech to get stuck in a fight in a market that has more
products than it does users already.

Those 80% nearly always will have a TV, game console or disc player
that already includes a USB port that could play mp3 files.

Even if they dont want to buy a newer TV they are faced with; $299 for
a Squeezebox or $19 for a generic DVD player with a USB port.


Basic use media players flood the market and are extremely cheap.


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jean2
2012-03-18 04:48:49 UTC
Permalink
bits;696137 Wrote:
>
> I dont think making Squeezebox double as a NAS is at all smart.
> -It'll cost too much to buy
> -It'll be too big and ugly
> -many users already have a more powerful server to use
>

Have you heard of TinyLMS ?
Cost : $300 for Touch + $100 for HDD.
Size : size of the regular Touch.
Powerful server : people nowadays buy laptops and tablets, not servers.
Powerful servers consume too much electricity for my taste.

I use my Touch with the local TinyLMS server a USB 2.5" hard drive
attached. It works just enough to be usable. With twice the memory and
twice the CPU in the Touch, I bet it would work very well (see
SqueezePlug for example). Increasing the CPU and memory will come for
free in the next rev of the Touch, thanks to Moore's law, and will be
included anyway for more fancy client services and UI.

I'm impatiently waiting for the Touch2 with great TinyLMS support (more
memory, more CPU) to install one at my parents and one at
parents-in-law, and I may even upgrade my own Touch. In other words,
yes, some users require those features and are willing to pay.

Regards,

Jean


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bits
2012-03-18 12:37:12 UTC
Permalink
jean2;696231 Wrote:
>
> Powerful server : people nowadays buy laptops and tablets, not servers.
> Powerful servers consume too much electricity for my taste.
>

My server consumes 7w's. Increasing the CPU and RAM in the Squeezebox
will just increase its power use by at least the same. Plus there is
zero point having huge CPU and ram in every Squeezebox to cater for the
1 that needs to run as the server. That will lead to multiple devices
wasting power and multiple devices costing far too much.

With your TinyLMS idea why is the Squeezebox the server and not the TV,
the bluray player or the fridge? Should they all be a server also just
in case they don't have a Squeezebox on the network also?

Where are the media files actually stored? Is it the Squeezebox, the
TV, the networked toaster or the Laptop that is downloading the files?

If the media files are on the Squeezebox, does it support all the other
future protocols required by the other devices accessing the files? Eg
is it a common OS like Windows or Linux?
I am confused how Logitech will go supporting a Samsung TV from the
Squeezebox product. Currently LMS UPnP doesn't work with Samsung TV's
so I would need to install Samsung's Windows based UPnP app on to the
Squeezebox?

Dreamers be dreamers, the server ideal is fine. How on earth do you
think people are using their smart TV, PS3, Xbox 360, bluray player
with upnp if not with a server?

LMS is fine, it runs on all major platforms so is easy to get running.

The user wants a server, that isnt Logitech forcing the user in to it,
it is the users own usage that is forcing it. A central data store of
the media files on a common OS is the only sane and logical way to do
this stuff. That same central data store may as well be running LMS and
other services for the other devices.

Users that can't figure out how to run a server need to ask someone
else for help.


Really TinyLMS? You think that changes anything?


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Mnyb
2012-03-18 13:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Well well yes the server should run all those programs to if you have
ps3's and networked blueray players so it's a given .
In that kind of context there is no way around a central server of some
kind .

This could be a powerfull NAS actually, sadly some poeple are using not
so powerfull NAS for this and are disappointed that it does not work as
expected

But to actually use LMS for it ? there are a bunch of more suited apps
for that .

I do think that the media part of LMS should be scrapped , there are
simply to many devices and odd requirements to cope with , LMS should
be specifically for Squeezeboxes the one thing it is good at not also
on the side be a me-too somewhat flawed video and picture server
draining dev resources , there are bugs about it and questions every
week and the devs use real time to track issues with smasung tv's or
whatnot instead of some basic omitted function for a squeezebox .

I think Erlands has piont re developing and function and then just
abandon it LMS has a pretty lame facebook function you just post 3
kinds of preformed posts thats it , not even write you own comment ?

It goes whitout a saying that either they scrap it or do something
better about it ?
How important is a blue logo with an F on the box ? that's basically
what it is about.

And should they really do facebook plugins with at the moment 17927
bugs most of them more important .

Btw is there an updated road-map about what 8.0 is about :)

with this new and positive agenda of hiring more devs , there must be a
long term plan I know that no one is going to tell about future devices
.

Historically big leaps in development has been accompanied by new
hardware .

But as the current hardware is good for so much more I feel that there
is a lot of room in Touch and Radio for more ?


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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bits
2012-03-18 22:10:13 UTC
Permalink
I see some merit in erlands USB playback idea, but also then consider
how many really have music carried around on USB. Perhaps for parties
users would preplan bringing the once off music on a USB device. It
would be nice to support considering the price paid for the Squeezebox.

It would be much much more common that the music is on a smart phone or
iPod. The Boom has a line in which with a 3.5mm to 3.5mm would suit
plugging into other devices headphone jack. It would be nice for a
Touch2 to include a line in but you wont get integration with the
device which makes the result not so awesome.

Both of these scenarios wont be some magic feature that opens the doors
for 5x the current userbase. They are niche features which would be nice
to have for the 1 time you want it so that people can say "wow these
Squeezebox's can do everything"


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jean2
2012-03-19 05:14:07 UTC
Permalink
bits;696287 Wrote:
> My server consumes 7w's. Increasing the CPU and RAM in the Squeezebox
> will just increase its power use by at least the same.
>

No, thanks to Moore's law. Power consumption of memory is marginal
anyway.

bits;696287 Wrote:
> Plus there is zero point having huge CPU and ram in every Squeezebox to
> cater for the 1 that needs to run as the server. That will lead to
> multiple devices wasting power and multiple devices costing far too
> much.
>

You need huge CPU and ram to get a nice snappy UI, and be able to
decode complex audio. For example, if you want to do 192 kHz, you will
need twice the CPU. Please compare the Radio and the Touch, the radio
has less CPU and half memory of the Touch, it has a simplified UI (no
VU, no equaliser), and only support 48 kHz. Coincidence ?

Have fun...

Jean


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bits
2012-03-19 12:15:22 UTC
Permalink
jean2;696437 Wrote:
>
> Coincidence ?
>

Ofcourse not, the UI requires CPU/Mem, so does the server and its DB.
The prettier it's UI the more CPU/Mem, the UI does not come at no
expense nor does the server portion.

Putting the server on the player will chew up the limited CPU/Mem
available for the UI all while it makes so little sense to have the
server on the networked media player to begin with.



In a dream world the Squeezebox would be a connection hub. erland wants
USB which I dont care for, others will want the line in for their random
devices, I would like Bluetooth personally if anything, I'm sure many
will want an iPod dock.

The Squeezebox currently does local networked files and internet hosted
content, but it mostly lacks the physical connections. The physical
connection swiss army knife will be what sky rockets the Squeezebox
price and I doubt there is even that much a reason for doing it
considering there is already so many existing products in that market.
Users either want a networked player or a local content player and will
rarely ever cross over uses. Logitech sell iPod dock speakers, the
Logitech Radio had a line in, your tv/game console/disc player can play
USB, why would those users buy the Squeezebox to begin with?

The Squeezebox is a networked media player, it plays your files from
your network(read from your server) or from the internet, does it need
to be extended at great price cost and extra complexity to be an
all-in-one fixed media player also?

Im lost on what so many people in this thread(and many others) want
from their Squeezebox network media player. They are stuck on the fact
they dont want their PC on but cant explain what files Squeezebox will
be playing if the PC is off. If the user does not want a networked
media player, why on earth are they looking to buy a Squeezebox?


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Mnyb
2012-03-19 15:30:42 UTC
Permalink
They need to work with the NAS vendors so that more offer
Squeezeboxserver/LMS in their add ins .

upnp/dlna is simply not good enough .

In a dream world there would be a "super dlna standard" and every one
could just pick and match media players and UI front ends and servers
however they wanted and shop just any NAS .

The background problem is that streaming media and internet radio and
services is a bit imature .

And strong actors like Apple are creating their own de-facto standards
and have large monopolies of their own .

Cell phones and sat-tv is more mature you can put in your sim card in
any phone and chose almost any operator ? and it works .

You don't need a special AT&T phone or special Nokia sim card .

But you do need a special reciva chip for thier offerings or vTuner or
mysqueezebox.com .

And all the the different service vendors want their own apps and
proprietary protocols .

I don't see a really simple and user friendly products as long as the
media situation is a mess .

And what about bying and downloading content to a media server outside
iTunes ?


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erland
2012-03-19 16:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;696501 Wrote:
> They need to work with the NAS vendors so that more offer
> Squeezeboxserver/LMS in their add ins .
>
How many of your non technical friends own a NAS ?

I agree it's a perfect solution, if the NAS is powerful enough, but
most normal people don't have a NAS and won't buy one because they
don't understand what it is and why they need it.

It would be a lot easier to to sell a "Music box" to them that store,
play and offer the music to other devices on the network, because then
they buy something directly offers them something. Of course, a "Music
box" can just be a NAS with a "Music box" label on it.

Mnyb;696501 Wrote:
>
> upnp/dlna is simply not good enough .
>
> In a dream world there would be a "super dlna standard" and every one
> could just pick and match media players and UI front ends and servers
> however they wanted and shop just any NAS .
>
One problem with DLNA is that it's too generic, so you basically need
to test it and adjust it for each device you like to support.

The other problem is that it's concept of having the logic related to
current playlist on the remote control is flawed. Works great if the
remote control is ethernet connected and always on when you are playing
music, like in a TV, but it doesn't work if the remote control can be
suddenly turned off or disconnected like on a tablet or phone.

Mnyb;696501 Wrote:
>
> The background problem is that streaming media and internet radio and
> services is a bit imature .
>
> And strong actors like Apple are creating their own de-facto standards
> and have large monopolies of their own .
>
It is a bit worrying that all major actors (Apple, Google, Amazon)
provide a music store and cloud storage which only can be accessed by
their own devices. We might end up in a situation where most mass
market users doesn't have the music locally in the house, they have it
all in a cloud, which Logitech devices doesn't have access to.

Mnyb;696501 Wrote:
>
> I don't see a really simple and user friendly products as long as the
> media situation is a mess .
>
> And what about bying and downloading content to a media server outside
> iTunes ?
>
My feeling has always been that the major missing part in the
Squeezebox concept is the electronic music store. The alternative with
streaming services like Spotify, Rhapsody, Napster covers part of the
hole but the fact is still the some people want to buy their music. I
realize it's unrealistic for Logitech to build a music store, but it
still feels like the missing part to me.

For people that want to buy their music, and does that through a
Google, Amazon, Apple device, it's going to feel like an unnecessary
extra step to copy/move the music to make it accessible by a Logitech
device, soon they will realize that it's more user friendly to just
play it on the Google, Amazon, Apple devices even though their feature
set isn't optimal.


--
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(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
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If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
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Interested in music discovery ? See 'Social Music Discovery (SMD)'
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erland
2012-03-19 16:44:56 UTC
Permalink
bits;696479 Wrote:
>
> In a dream world the Squeezebox would be a connection hub. erland wants
> USB which I dont care for, others will want the line in for their random
> devices, I would like Bluetooth personally if anything, I'm sure many
> will want an iPod dock.
>
Just to be clear, I don't want USB connection, I'm a geek, I'm using my
24/7 server.

However, I do think the mass market needs a multi-room solution, and
currently the situation is:
- Sonos is too expensive
- Squeezebox is too geeky
- No other big vendor provides something that works

The alternative that do exist for these users are iOS/Android phones
and a docking station with speakers in all the rooms in the house,
where you bring the phone (which contains the music) to the room you
want to listen in. Lack of synchronized playback is not an issue for
mass market, and by moving the phone to the right docking station they
can listen to the music in all rooms.

The mass market users likely have their music on either a laptop or a
tablet/phone or both, they don't own a stationary computer.

So the mass market (not me) need a solution that either:
- Can get the music from where it is (on smart phone/tablet or
laptop).
or
- Can be the media server where the music is stored and offers it to
all other devices that want to use it.

However, I need the Squeezebox to survive, and the only way I can see
that happen is if Logitech is earning good money on it, and Logitech
knows how to sell to mass market users but I doubt that they know how
to sell to geeks.


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bits
2012-03-17 07:10:34 UTC
Permalink
erland;696105 Wrote:
> Powerful at what ?
>

Powerful at integrating/consolidating numerous media types from both
local and internet sources into a single common interface.

Powerful at allowing full control over the way the products works so it
can be tailored to how a user wants. Eg advance configuration options,
Plugins that allow for much much more, near complete control over the
entire UI.

Powerful media library management when compared to other "hardware"
based players, eg TV, AV Receiver, Disc player, etc. Fast access to
different views, eg by artist, album, year, genre. Fast access to
searching for specific files that match certain criteria. Strong
playlist management for playlist creation, queue management.

Powerful integration of other desired features eg visualizations,
weather forecasts, home automation via already mentioned powerful full
control of app :)


It can do 1 million different things for 1 million different people and
that flexibility causes complexity, that is the nature of the beast. You
can only dumb it down so far before you start removing the features
listed above and at that point you lose everything that made Squeezebox
stand out from the pack to begin with.

The reason Squeezebox has been such a popular product for so many years
is because it is powerful. If you didn't want powerful you would just
use your existing TV's media interface that you already owned(or your
PS3, Xbox 360, Bluray player etc).


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frank1969
2012-03-17 09:44:57 UTC
Permalink
When will we get 7.8 nightlies from
http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/ ?


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Michael Herger
2012-03-19 05:50:30 UTC
Permalink
> When will we get 7.8 nightlies from
> http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/ ?

I'll take care of them soon. Not much interesting in there yet anyway.

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Mnyb
2012-03-19 06:08:04 UTC
Permalink
mherger;696440 Wrote:
> > When will we get 7.8 nightlies from
> > http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/ ?
>
> I'll take care of them soon. Not much interesting in there yet anyway.
>
> --
>
> Michael

Yea but it's a part of daily routine :) check the nightly if numbers
gone up install ( rinse and repeat ) But no rush we seems to be on a
variable update freq these days once or twice a week until somethings
substantial is committed then it can come a burst of daily updates (
like it used to be ).


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Michael Herger
2012-03-19 09:17:30 UTC
Permalink
> Yea but it's a part of daily routine :) check the nightly if numbers
> gone up install ( rinse and repeat )

You should set up SVN. Updates will take a few seconds without the need to
wait for a build ;-).

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transporter
2012-03-19 10:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Do you know anything about user profiles in next versions?
This has been in Roadmap since 7.6. My kids are about 10-12 now.
Everyday i have to set my favourits, playlists and stuff.


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reniera
2012-03-19 17:12:04 UTC
Permalink
transporter;696464 Wrote:
> do you know anything about user profiles in next versions?
> This has been in roadmap since 7.6. My kids are about 10-12 now.
> Everyday i have to set my favourits, playlists and stuff.


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Mnyb
2012-03-19 17:22:40 UTC
Permalink
> reniera;696523



user profiles is in the roadmap for 8.0 if you believe the wiki , and
when 8.0 might be here is not exactly stated hopefully 2012


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erland
2012-03-19 17:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;696524 Wrote:
> user profiles is in the roadmap for 8.0 if you believe the wiki , and
> when 8.0 might be here is not exactly stated hopefully 2012
>
I don't think the roadmap on the wiki is valid anymore, the roadmap
that is valid is only known internally within Logitech. I wonder if it
would be a good idea to add some information about this to the wiki
page to avoid confusion ?
Would probably be a better idea to add some good bugzilla links which
people can use to list bugs/features targeted to a specific release and
possible links to forum posts/threads that describes something useful
related to a specific release.

Neither 7.6 nor 7.7 nor 7.8 is even mentioned in the roadmap on the
wiki except for links to the changelog of 7.6.0, parts of the 8.0
roadmap entry, the new scanner work, is already included in 7.6 and
7.7.


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erland
2012-03-19 17:46:13 UTC
Permalink
transporter;696464 Wrote:
> Do you know anything about user profiles in next versions?
> This has been in Roadmap since 7.6. My kids are about 10-12 now.
> Everyday i have to set my favourits, playlists and stuff.
>
Some questions (to you or anyone else that wants this):
1. As a minimum, what would need to be separated for each user ?
Separate favorites for each user is obvious but is there something else
that would be critical to make it useful ?

2. Do you want complete separation so one user can't access information
for another user, or do you want some kind of browsing separation where
you are able to access the favorites for all users but by default you
see your own ?

3. Should it ask you for a user name every time you power on the
Squeezebox or does it power on with the previously selected user and
you manually have to change to another user through a menu option ?


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JJZolx
2012-03-19 17:51:20 UTC
Permalink
You guys think maybe you could get a few more topics going in this
thread? There's no sense in taking up too much room in the forums.


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bonze
2012-03-19 19:06:18 UTC
Permalink
JJZolx;696537 Wrote:
> You guys think maybe you could get a few more topics going in this
> thread? There's no sense in taking up too much room in the forums.whooooosh!


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reniera
2012-03-19 21:50:43 UTC
Permalink
erland;696532 Wrote:
> Some questions (to you or anyone else that wants this):
> 1. As a minimum, what would need to be separated for each user ?
> Separate favorites for each user is obvious but is there something else
> that would be critical to make it useful ?
>
> 2. Do you want complete separation so one user can't access information
> for another user, or do you want some kind of browsing separation where
> you are able to access the favorites for all users but by default you
> see your own ?
>
> 3. Should it ask you for a user name every time you power on the
> Squeezebox or does it power on with the previously selected user and
> you manually have to change to another user through a menu option ?

1. Libraries (what combinaison of folder to scan), favorites, ratings.
2. 3. A new entry in the menu allowing anyone to select one user
profile, those being defined in the admin interface, would be enough.
No need for 1024 bits encryption ;)


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mps
2012-03-21 02:33:35 UTC
Permalink
erland;696532 Wrote:
> Some questions (to you or anyone else that wants this):
> 1. As a minimum, what would need to be separated for each user ?
> Separate favorites for each user is obvious but is there something else
> that would be critical to make it useful ?
>
> 2. Do you want complete separation so one user can't access information
> for another user, or do you want some kind of browsing separation where
> you are able to access the favorites for all users but by default you
> see your own ?
>
> 3. Should it ask you for a user name every time you power on the
> Squeezebox or does it power on with the previously selected user and
> you manually have to change to another user through a menu option ?
Separate trackstat functionality including, but not limited to,
ratings. How I rate songs is not the same as how my daughter does (in
fact, they may be anticorrelated :) )


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Wigster
2012-03-22 22:36:40 UTC
Permalink
mps;696697 Wrote:
> Separate trackstat functionality including, but not limited to, ratings.
> How I rate songs is not the same as how my daughter does (in fact, they
> may be anticorrelated :) )

And a separate scrobbling profile for last.fm!


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reniera
2012-03-23 04:06:22 UTC
Permalink
mps;696697 Wrote:
> Separate trackstat functionality including, but not limited to, ratings.
> How I rate songs is not the same as how my daughter does (in fact, they
> may be anticorrelated :) )

Let's be clear. We don't want trackstat evolution but an implementation
of those functionalities in the core product by logitech.


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erland
2012-03-23 05:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Do I understand it correctly, that people think support for multiple
user profiles are pointless unless ratings also is supported ?
So Logitech either need to do both ratings and user profiles or not do
user profiles at all ?

Or is there some minimal implementation of user profiles that would
make sense without having the ability to browse by ratings and even
without ability to browse music library per user ?
For me it feels like multiple user profiles could have some usage even
if rating support aren't implemented.

As an example, would it makes sense to have multiple user profiles that
only offered separate favorites per user

Favorites are pretty obvious, but are their other things that are
really critical to make it worthwhile to implement support for multiple
user profiles ?
- Separate playlists per user
- Separate LastFM accounts ?
- Separate mysqueezebox.com accounts ?
- Possibility to configure a sticky user per device ?
- Separate library browse menus ?
- Possibility to have common tracks that are available for multiple
users ?

It feels like it's important to take this step by step and not wish for
everything in a single release even if the vision/goal at the end is to
have it all. The main reason is that if we only wish for everything
there is a risk it's going to be considered too much work so it will be
dropped completely because of other more important features, like
support for new hardware and new streaming services, which also needs
to be included in the release.


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Mnyb
2012-03-23 05:59:20 UTC
Permalink
erland;697005 Wrote:
> Do I understand it correctly, that people think support for multiple
> user profiles are pointless unless ratings also is supported ?
> So Logitech either need to do both ratings and user profiles or not do
> user profiles at all ?
>
> Or is there some minimal implementation of user profiles that would
> make sense without having the ability to browse by ratings and even
> without ability to browse music library per user ?
> For me it feels like multiple user profiles could have some usage even
> if rating support aren't implemented.
>
> As an example, would it makes sense to have multiple user profiles that
> only offered separate favorites per user
>
> Favorites are pretty obvious, but are their other things that are
> really critical to make it worthwhile to implement support for multiple
> user profiles ?
> - Separate playlists per user
> - Separate LastFM accounts ?
> - Separate mysqueezebox.com accounts ?
> - Possibility to configure a sticky user per device ?
> - Separate library browse menus ?
> - Possibility to have common tracks that are available for multiple
> users ?
>
> It feels like it's important to take this step by step and not wish for
> everything in a single release even if the vision/goal at the end is to
> have it all. The main reason is that if we only wish for everything
> there is a risk it's going to be considered too much work so it will be
> dropped completely because of other more important features, like
> support for new hardware and new streaming services, which also needs
> to be included in the release.

I think that a common use case is that family members simply have
different music files and taste altogether so by choosing your user you
switch everything .

Would not that simply be easier but the integrating things between
users the more demanding stuff .

I mean if user simply have their own cache and prefs folder locations,
would not multiple users be like (re)starting LMS with another set of
those . That would mean installing plugins for every user but also that
users could have different plugins .

Harder to do spawn LMS with different users at the same time ! on any
platform, multiple instance is not unknown but this usually involve
some knowledgeable trickery with bind addresses so that you can make
the players see the difference .

if this is done select source on a player could be select user too .

Next big issue would be to stop family members from stealing each
others players :)


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paulster
2012-03-23 06:06:31 UTC
Permalink
How about just having multiple libraries first? (And, yes, I know
there's a third-party plugin that can do this, but it's about time
Logitech put it into the core functionality). That way we can
catalogue albums, singles and classical music (for example) without
getting one big library full of clutter, especially with things like
singles.

You can always use the libraries to represent different users too.

This would be way more useful for me than specific user profiles


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transporter
2012-03-23 06:40:40 UTC
Permalink
paulster;697009 Wrote:
> How about just having multiple libraries first?
> [..]
> This would be way more useful for me than specific user profiles

But please - as erland wrote there's a desperately need for separate
favorites.


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erland
2012-03-23 06:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;697008 Wrote:
> I think that a common use case is that family members simply have
> different music files and taste altogether so by choosing your user you
> switch everything .
>
> Would not that simply be easier but the integrating things between
> users the more demanding stuff .
>
> I mean if user simply have their own cache and prefs folder locations,
> would not multiple users be like (re)starting LMS with another set of
> those . That would mean installing plugins for every user but also that
> users could have different plugins .
>
I guess the big question really is if even all the music files are on
the same server in a typical family ?

Maybe the "system administrator" in the house doesn't want to give the
12-year old write permission to the central server where the big
library is ? So the kids music is on a separate computer ?

To me it feels like the advanced scenarios you describe is better
handled through running separate servers on separate computers, pretty
much the same way Apple handles this problem, and this works already
today.

So my feeling is that if something should be done, it should be focused
on covering the simple case, where all family members can at least share
the same settings and plugins and server. The question is just if there
are any families where the simple scenario is applicable ?

It's probably reasonable in a family with two adults with no kids, but
I suspect the real need for user profiles is when kids come into the
picture and start putting kids music in the library which the parents
aren't that interested in browsing and playing in the living room.

So, what does forum members with families find to be the big issue with
the lack of multi-user support in the current solution ? Are favorites
the main problem or are there other things too ?


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bluegaspode
2012-03-23 10:25:50 UTC
Permalink
erland;697014 Wrote:
>
> So, what does forum members with families find to be the big issue with
> the lack of multi-user support in the current solution ? Are favorites
> the main problem or are there other things too ?

Right now it's still 'easy' (with a 2 year old kid).
I personally don't need favorites, so favorites are used to have fast
access to all important kids albums.
I browse my full library and don't care yet about 10-20 kids albums
inbetween.

Thinking into the future (and being pragmatic):
I guess I'd just need two separate libraries. One with the kids albums
and one with my own (+wifes) albums.
Two separate folders would be enough for maintenance - if they just
showed as "My Music Stefan", "My Music Son" in the menu it would be
good enough (no user profiles needed, where one item is hidden based on
the user or controller used).

With Windows file shares I could even manage access, so that my son
beiing 10years old could only manipulate/extend 'his' library.

Probability of having the same album in both folders is pretty low I
guess (I expect our tastes to differ very much, at least as long as he
is living with us). As I don't want for user profiles which would hide
stuff, my son could browse in my main library (and I could browse in
his) anyway.

If we really want to have the same album in 'our' menus, then well -
just copy it over and have it redundant in both. This would only count
for <10% albums if at all.

All this could be achieved with the multilibrary plugin already today,
so this plugin in it's simplest form (separation by folder), is all I'd
need from Logitech to get a big improvement for my daily family life.


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JJZolx
2012-03-26 04:32:08 UTC
Permalink
I hope we haven't quit applying small fixes to 7.7 trunk.


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paulster
2012-03-26 04:38:58 UTC
Permalink
+1. Surely it's time for one of these 'bug meetings' that we keep
seeing referenced in bugzilla to happen and for some of these old bugs
to finally get fixed.


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erland
2012-03-17 10:40:57 UTC
Permalink
bits;696138 Wrote:
> Powerful at integrating/consolidating numerous media types from both
> local and internet sources into a single common interface.
>
> Powerful at allowing full control over the way the products works so it
> can be tailored to how a user wants. Eg advance configuration options,
> Plugins that allow for much much more, near complete control over the
> entire UI.
>
> Powerful media library management when compared to other "hardware"
> based players, eg TV, AV Receiver, Disc player, etc. Fast access to
> different views, eg by artist, album, year, genre. Fast access to
> searching for specific files that match certain criteria. Strong
> playlist management for playlist creation, queue management.
>
> Powerful integration of other desired features eg visualizations,
> weather forecasts, home automation via already mentioned powerful full
> control of app :)
>
>
> It can do 1 million different things for 1 million different people and
> that flexibility causes complexity, that is the nature of the beast. You
> can only dumb it down so far before you start removing the features
> listed above and at that point you lose everything that made Squeezebox
> stand out from the pack to begin with.
>
> The reason Squeezebox has been such a popular product for so many years
> is because it is powerful. If you didn't want powerful you would just
> use your existing TV's media interface that you already owned(or your
> PS3, Xbox 360, Bluray player etc).
>
I just wish you had mentioned the words "music", "audio" or "listen" at
least once... ;-)
Because that's my point, functionality related to music
discovery/listening has not been in focus during the last years, at
least not enough.


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Mnyb
2012-03-17 11:27:18 UTC
Permalink
The weird thing is that so much more could have been done ?
There are so many omissions of "normal" functionality in music playing
software ?

The framework is mildly complex may take a tiny effort to come trough ,
but then what ? If the reward was higher more would thinks it is
worthwhile to do .

I'm thrilled that I can have a playlist with spotify tracks bandcamp
tracks and my own tracks at the same time .

And actually thanks to Triode and Pippin look for similar artist on
spotify etc .

Being old shool liking my own files I mostly explore with services I
quickly tries to add interesting stuff as local files .

And biography and lyrics .

But a surprising lot of my favorite functions are third party :)
thankyou

But I would expect logitech to develop more music functions on thier
own ?

A football score screen-saver or wheather is hardly core functionality
, let third party set the agenda here .

But for example why must a plugin like playlist manager exist ? this is
core functions .


--
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jean2
2012-03-18 04:54:37 UTC
Permalink
erland;696105 Wrote:
> I think the single most important thing to get rid of is the computer.
> There are two reasons which have stopped my friends to use the
> Squeezebox:
> 1. The requirement to have a computer powered on (people don't have
> stationary computer these days, they have tablets or laptops)
> 2. The requirement to rip all their CD-collection.
>

You forgot one point. Having to support LMS on all those OSes, their
various evolving versions and all those complex software configuration
is a lot of work. Being able to target only a single well defined and
well controlled appliance platform (i.e. TinyLMS) would simplify
testing and support.

I don't see them dropping regular LMS in the medium term, as TinyLMS is
not up to scratch currently.

Jean


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Mnyb
2012-03-18 06:09:39 UTC
Permalink
jean2;696233 Wrote:
> You forgot one point. Having to support LMS on all those OSes, their
> various evolving versions and all those complex software configuration
> is a lot of work. Being able to target only a single well defined and
> well controlled appliance platform (i.e. TinyLMS) would simplify
> testing and support.
>
> I don't see them dropping regular LMS in the medium term, as TinyLMS is
> not up to scratch currently.
>
> Jean

There is a lot of things LMS does that not even doubling CPU and memory
would help with, when moores law give us Touch 3 , maybe :)

Don't forget the web-UI or the plugin architecture or the transcoding
framework for files and radio .

And relatively cheap yes, but they need a serverless player anyway
paying for the server several times in a multi room install make no
sense . I don't think you actually pay for a server in Touch, I
speculate that it was moores law again someone figured hmm just maybe
we can shoehorn in a crippled server here let's try....

So a server free Touch 2 ( basically improved Touch ) and Touch 3 with
some more CPU grunt ?

Or actually a stand alone server , you would not call it " server", to
frightening a music base station of some kind ( is not that what Sonos
get away with ) no fan room for one 3TB 3,5" drive small, made in
cheerful designed plastic maybe in white.


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bluegaspode
2012-03-18 11:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;696244 Wrote:
> There is a lot of things LMS does that not even doubling CPU and memory
> would help with, when moores law give us Touch 3 , maybe :)
>
> Don't forget the web-UI or the plugin architecture or the transcoding
> framework for files and radio .

SqueezePlug/SheevaPlug is doing fine with transcoding m4a to FLAC and
also transcoding to mp3 for bitrate limiting is no problem, when Shine
is used and not LAME. Also Ogg decode+FLAC encode (i.e. triodes Spotify
plugin) works without any glitches.

WebUI + plugins work fine here too and I run 5 Squeezeboxes with it.

So a simple mem + cpu upgrade to at least 1,2Ghz and 512MB Ram would
help the Touch pretty much.


--
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jean2
2012-03-19 05:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;696244 Wrote:
> There is a lot of things LMS does that not even doubling CPU and memory
> would help with, when moores law give us Touch 3 , maybe :)
>
> Don't forget the web-UI or the plugin architecture or the transcoding
> framework for files and radio .
>

I've run web servers with PHP on device even more lightweight than the
Touch (StrongArm based Gumstix). I've also run PostgreSQL on that
platform, but that was stretching it, databases like memory. From that
experience, I can tell you that the web server is a piece of cake, if
you have the memory and the patience.

Transcoding is most likely not possible, but anyway not needed if you
limit yourself to the device that Logitech is selling today. Plug-ins,
well, it depend how database intensive they are, so I can't comment.

It may seem counterintuitive, but usually server functionality is less
intensive than client and UI functionality, unless you want scaling to
very large numbers like Google. Those fancy equalisers and VU meters
are not available on the radio for example. See also the SqueezePlug :
SheevaPlug : 1.2 GHz with 512 MB == good server, SqueezeBox Touch : 533
MHz with 128 MB memory == just enough. I sau the Touch is not that
far...

I've also some experience with TinyLMS. Scanning is the heavy part
(again, databases want memory). And memory is really really tight,
after the OS is loaded and all the UI is loaded, the server is loaded,
there is very little for scanning. Doubling the memory would make a
tremendous difference with respect to scanning and database
maintainance. At the end of the day you will be limited by the speed of
the USB interface, that's why I predict less gains beyond doubling
memory/CPU.

Of course, I've got limited experience with LMS, so I may be all
wrong...

Mnyb;696244 Wrote:
> So a server free Touch 2 ( basically improved Touch ) and Touch 3 with
> some more CPU grunt ?
>

See comparison between Touch and SheevaPlug. The Touch2 you describe
would be able to run the server properly for free.

Have fun...

Jean


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Phil Meyer
2012-03-31 16:09:02 UTC
Permalink
>Oh, did we ever mention we're hiring?
>
>http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oRydWfwi
>http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oVydWfwm

Interesting; c++ is a must, but perl is not a must, and only familiarity with Lua. I wonder what can be read into that.
slate
2012-03-31 17:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Philip Meyer;698791 Wrote:
> >Oh, did we ever mention we're hiring?
> >
> >http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oRydWfwi
> >http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Careers.aspx?c=qgX9Vfw1&v=1&page=Job%20Description&j=oVydWfwm
>
> Interesting; c++ is a must, but perl is not a must, and only
> familiarity with Lua. I wonder what can be read into that.

I would read that as "firmware"


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dasmueller
2012-04-01 14:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Nice to see they're hiring. Hopefully some of those resorces will go
towards LMS and hardware.


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erland
2012-04-01 15:03:59 UTC
Permalink
dasmueller;698899 Wrote:
> Nice to see they're hiring. Hopefully some of those resorces will go
> towards LMS and hardware.
>
Feels like they are looking for resources related to firmware and
mysqueezebox.com if you ask me, none of the two links asks for
competences focused at hardware development.

Of course, firmware updates are likely needed if they want to release
some new hardware, so it's not completely unrelated.


--
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Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
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bluegaspode
2012-03-14 22:17:36 UTC
Permalink
You won't ever find a company that commits to anything like that.

So for me a statement like

>
> >>do you guys care about votes or no?
> We do. Probably not at the level some might want us to care, but still.
> "
>

is good enough.
It shows that people still care which matters a lot in big companies
and which gives me hope (on the long run).

And come on: it won't ever matter how many votes bug 15604 will get.
It's a highly debatable bug report: making UI more versatile vs. more
clumsy to new users so it will always be up to a product manager what
he personally prefers and if it matches his vision of the product.
This has nothing todo with ignoring votes altogether


--
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Did you know: *'SqueezePlayer' (www.squeezeplayer.com)* will stream all
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Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? *'Squeezebox + iPad =
SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)*
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MrSinatra
2012-03-14 22:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Erland,

you say votes and forums etc are no good for the devs to take cues
from... so just how then do you propose they do it? u make some valid
points but you seem to have a defeatist attitude. i don't mean that in
a personal way, but when you say "you've given up" etc it seems that
way. they used to ENCOURAGE VOTING, like Chris Owens, logitech
employee, remember him??? now thats no good?

i haven't given up in the sense that i do think a reasonable,
non-personal argument can be made that the devs, who btw WORK FOR
LOGITECH, (i don't accept this deflection argument of good guys vs bad
guys, which is insane in a corporate environment, you all are one
entity imo), should takes cues to the roadmap from votes for bug
tracker. how is that not reasonable? michael says they do, but when u
have a bug like 142 sit DEAD for as long as it does, how can anyone
believe that?

frankly, it seems to me it is completely reasonable to suggest that
they could implement ONE top ten voted bug per official release.

bluegaspode;695841 Wrote:
> You won't ever find a company that commits to anything like that.
>
> So for me a statement like
>
> is good enough.
> It shows that people still care which matters a lot in big companies
> and which gives me hope (on the long run).

well, we disagree. i think its completely reasonable. and THEY
encouraged it, don't forget that. the posts of them doing so are right
in these very forums.

bluegaspode;695841 Wrote:
> And come on: it won't ever matter how many votes bug 15604 will get.
> It's a highly debatable bug report: making UI more versatile vs. more
> clumsy to new users so it will always be up to a product manager what
> he personally prefers and if it matches his vision of the product.
> This has nothing todo with ignoring votes altogether

this has nothing to do with 15604, that was just an example, just as
142 is an example.

http://bugs.slimdevices.com/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now;query_format=advanced;chfieldfrom=2010-01-01;votes=40;bug_status=UNCONFIRMED;bug_status=NEW;bug_status=ASSIGNED;bug_status=REOPENED;bug_status=RESOLVED;bug_status=VERIFIED;bug_status=CLOSED

take your pick there of the highest voted bugs. ANY of the 11 open
ones would be fine by me. do one a release. is that really
impossible?


--
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::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
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erland
2012-03-14 23:34:35 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;695845 Wrote:
>
> you say votes and forums etc are no good for the devs to take cues
> from... so just how then do you propose they do it? u make some valid
> points but you seem to have a defeatist attitude. i don't mean that in
> a personal way, but when you say "you've given up" etc it seems that
> way. they used to ENCOURAGE VOTING, like Chris Owens, logitech
> employee, remember him??? now thats no good?
>
I think votes is a good way for people to tell Logitech what they wish
to be implemented, so people should vote and Logitech does include
votes as one factor when they consider if something should be
implemented.

But I don't think you can trust votes strictly as long as it's as hard
as it currently is to vote, you need to register a separate account and
you need to find the bug among the thousands of bugs available in
bugzilla. The reason some bugs have more votes than others are often
that they have been promoted by someone in the forum to make people
realize the bug exist and is possible to vote on. Also, I would suspect
that it's probably less than 5% of the Squeezebox owners that spend time
on this forum on weekly basis and of those 5% only a small sub set is
registered in bugzilla so they can vote on bug reports and enhancement
requests. It's easy to think that all Squeezebox owners read this forum
every week because most of the experienced community members do, but in
reality this isn't the case. Also there are probably a lot of users
that doesn't even have a forum account but still reads the forum
without being registered on it.

MrSinatra;695845 Wrote:
>
> i haven't given up in the sense that i do think a reasonable,
> non-personal argument can be made that the devs, who btw WORK FOR
> LOGITECH, (i don't accept this deflection argument of good guys vs bad
> guys, which is insane in a corporate environment, you all are one
> entity imo), should takes cues to the roadmap from votes for bug
> tracker. how is that not reasonable? michael says they do, but when u
> have a bug like 142 sit DEAD for as long as it does, how can anyone
> believe that?
>
142 is not a bug, it's an enhancement request.

It's pretty obvious that Logitech and Slim Devices have decided to stay
away from smart playlists and this also makes ratings completely
uninteresting as their primary usage is together with smart playlists.
In my mind, both 142 and 380 needs to be implemented to get something
that's useful, else they will still have a dependency to third party
solutions.

I've probably caused this scenario partly myself since the need become
less obvious when there was a working third party solution through
TrackStat/SQLPlaylist in 2006. Maybe it would have gotten higher
priority if I hadn't released TrackStat/SQL Playlist, I don't know, but
the main reason I released them was because I wanted to show the
potential and I wanted the functionality myself and didn't want to wait
for Slim Devices to realize it was important.

MrSinatra;695845 Wrote:
>
> frankly, it seems to me it is completely reasonable to suggest that
> they could implement ONE top ten voted bug per official release.
>
Reasonable, yes, but you won't get any commitment, in same way as you
won't get any commitment from Apple, Microsoft, Sonos, Google or any
other serious company regarding new features.

What you will get is what Michael already has said, they will consider
the votes when deciding what to include.

The reason enhancements like 142 hasn't been implemented is
strategically, it's not because they don't care about votes, the same
thing is also the reason for the top most voted feature regarding
Grooveshark (which is related to legal issues). I would guess that most
of the bugs/features on the top 10 list have a reason why they haven't
been implemented, either it's not in line with Logitech strategies or
they have negative side effects for some user category or they require
a large development effort but won't generate enough revenue.
Personally I would prefer that Logitech just closed enhancements they
don't plan to fix with a "Won't fix" resolution, because that would
make it clear for everyone what the strategy is, but in reality I
understand why they don't want to do that because it will make some
people upset when someone says that their favorite bug/enhancement
won't be fixed, it causes less critique if they just ignore it. Target
Milestone = "Future" or "New Schema" does in reality mean the same
thing as "Won't fix" in most cases, at least in my mind.

As a side note, the Spotify enhancement request got exactly 100 votes
and that one got implemented, so did a number of other bugs which also
have a lot of votes:
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced;votes=10;bug_status=RESOLVED;bug_status=VERIFIED;bug_status=CLOSED;columnlist=bug_severity%2Cpriority%2Cop_sys%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_status%2Cresolution%2Cshort_desc;resolution=FIXED
So I guess this could be an indication that they do care about votes.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
(http://license.isaksson.info))
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Mnyb
2012-03-15 01:15:43 UTC
Permalink
*Enhancement* request 142 is a problematic one for a reason I think.

As the server software is committed to a solution where it never ever
write to the files directly and this is very dear to many users. This
paradigm wins in this situation.

This will undoubtedly always lead to a situation where you loose all
ratings, Erland has gone to some lengths in his plugins with an
externally available trackstat backup . But this is for technical
reasons not safe either as there are circumstances where the file can't
be 100% identified . One way it works is by the extremely geeky music
brains id and some other means .

There are great ideas that could be implemented if the server did not
treat the dB as a temp a mere reflection of the tags .
But that would need a whole other level of programming where the dB
always could be recovered and translated between schema changes and not
needed to be " cache cleared" aka tossed away for every minor scanner
issue and it would need to hash every file during scan to create unique
identities but eventually for safety reason it would need to write an Id
to the file .

Then the dB could be augmented by all sorts of info and associated
functionality not only ratings that would only be the 1% of what would
be possible .
A greatly enhanced music exploring application that many wants.

but even this is a bit over the top for most users that are not
committed music nerds you must keep the file collection in order and
tagged.
There is a lot of pull in the other direction where people just want to
play a jumble of misshaped files by folder and file name and those users
already treats music as a disposable not a cherished collection.
This is eventually also outdone by all taut relies on a service to even
have files is a minority solution.

I would settle for if they actually fixed bugs in whatever
functionality they decided the server should have.
As it is now I'm irritated by the fact they do build functions that are
buggy and never fix them instead they develop next function that is also
buggy ad naseum . And it detoriates, old functionality brakes and is
never fixed they are not on top of the maintenance aspect of this .

And in many cases this does not lead to high vote counts a prime sample
is that album artist issue .
Other examples include where less tech savvy user usually think they
have done something wrong or never realise how it really should work .

Another example it has becoming popular by for example Bandcamp and
some other vendors to use separate track art in addition to album art .
This is great now every song has a different artwork and the album as a
whole one. this actually worked before 7.6 but is broken now the
presence of track art even brakes the functionality of album art and
this issue has all of 3 votes or similar.

So please please fix total lack of quality controll . Do a rudimentary
QC before every release have a functional spec and test every function
against that .


--
Mnyb

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Mnyb
2012-03-15 02:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Here is the artwork issue
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17634 FYI


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sub.
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reniera
2012-03-15 03:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;695864 Wrote:
> *Enhancement* request 142 is a problematic one for a reason I think.
>
> As the server software is committed to a solution where it never ever
> write to the files directly and this is very dear to many users. This
> paradigm wins in this situation.
>
> This will undoubtedly always lead to a situation where you loose all
> ratings, Erland has gone to some lengths in his plugins with an
> externally available trackstat backup . But this is for technical
> reasons not safe either as there are circumstances where the file can't
> be 100% identified . One way it works is by the extremely geeky music
> brains id and some other means .
>
> There are great ideas that could be implemented if the server did not
> treat the dB as a temp a mere reflection of the tags .
> But that would need a whole other level of programming where the dB
> always could be recovered and translated between schema changes and not
> needed to be " cache cleared" aka tossed away for every minor scanner
> issue and it would need to hash every file during scan to
> create unique identities but eventually for safety reason it would need
> to write an Id to the file .
>
> Then the dB could be augmented by all sorts of info and associated
> functionality not only ratings that would only be the 1% of what would
> be possible .

I fully agree with your last statement.

Solution is to store info in hidden files in the media directories ( in
addition of database). See how Picasa works with photos. No need to
reinvent the wheel.


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Mnyb
2012-03-15 04:03:09 UTC
Permalink
reniera;695877 Wrote:
> I fully agree with your last statement.
>
> But 142 is not problematic at all. Solution is to store info in hidden
> files in the media directories ( in addition of database). See how
> Picasa works with photos. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Workable yes but.

Some aluminium foil hat people prefer the directories read only .

A one album one folder approach ? Not all people do this .

And finally does picasa account for filename changes and file changes
aka tagging done by other software ?

Remember that the music file can change name and size and timestamp due
to external tagging operations and also location how would an external
file track that ?


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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jmschnur
2012-03-15 02:17:39 UTC
Permalink
Market survey makes sense plus bug fixes.


J


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Joel
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Mnyb
2012-03-15 02:23:11 UTC
Permalink
As the dev resources are as limited as they are can't we just scrap the
video and picture support and upnp/dlna thing ?
To make this actually work properly you must commit even more resources
than you sunk into the whole project already ? This seems extremely
costly to me .


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Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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MrC
2012-03-14 21:18:36 UTC
Permalink
There's nothing problematic or personal in Michael H's response. In my
opinion, his response (and responses in general) are exceptionally
poised, considerate, and respectful.

I'm sure someday you'll see that.


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xtrips
2012-04-26 11:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

How many of us have lost the ability to show a screensaver while Off
such as the Digital clock or any other?
If you browse a bit on the forum you can find many users that have
encountered this problem lately.
I don't know if it is linked to the LMS version but it is definitely
connected to LMS.
Because I have 2 SB Touch and both shows the digital clock while Off
after factory reset UNTIL you connect them to the LMS.
Then they lose this functionality and show nothing but a black screen
while Off.
BTW I am using the Readynas Pro x86 version of LMS which does not have
any control on the Touch's display.

Thanks


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bonze
2012-04-26 12:51:43 UTC
Permalink
xtrips wrote:
> How many of us have lost the ability to show a screensaver while Off
> such as the Digital clock or any other?
Not encountered this problem with 7.8.

Both of mine are set to 'Digital Clock Black', and display OK.

LMS: 7.8.0 r33950
FW: 7.8.0 r9704


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Ikabob
2012-04-26 14:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Can someone tell me what improvements 7.8 r33939 offers over 7.7r***** ?
thank you.


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erland
2012-04-27 04:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Ikabob wrote:
> Can someone tell me what improvements 7.8 r33950 offers over 7.7r***** ?
> thank you.
>
The change log can be found here:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/slim/7.8/trunk/server/Changelog7.html


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copperstate
2012-05-01 07:59:57 UTC
Permalink
I recently started using my SB3 again. Is it possible that the 7.8
branch might have problems dealing with the old "classic" SBs ? Mine
seems to "loose" its connection to my LMS (r33951) from time to time ...


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onimod
2012-05-01 09:56:34 UTC
Permalink
xtrips wrote:
> Hello,
>
> How many of us have lost the ability to show a screensaver while Off
> such as the Digital clock or any other?
> If you browse a bit on the forum you can find many users that have
> encountered this problem lately.
> I don't know if it is linked to the LMS version but it is definitely
> connected to LMS.
> Because I have 2 SB Touch and both shows the digital clock while Off
> after factory reset UNTIL you connect them to the LMS.
> Then they lose this functionality and show nothing but a black screen
> while Off.
> BTW I am using the Readynas Pro x86 version of LMS which does not have
> any control on the Touch's display.
>
> Thanks

I have the same problem with 7.7.2.
I've started a new thread here:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?95019-Screensaver-problem-too&p=703160#post703160


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Ikabob
2012-06-08 11:57:17 UTC
Permalink
FYI: 7.8 nightly does not seem to sinch precisely. There seems to be a
fraction of a second diff between my Touch and Boom.
Also, many listings in a playlist are blank. I
Thought you'd want to know. Thanks.


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HeadBanger
2012-06-08 16:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Ikabob wrote:
> FYI: 7.8 nightly does not seem to sinch precisely. There seems to be a
> fraction of a second diff between my Touch and Boom.
> Also, many listings in a playlist are blank. I
> Thought you'd want to know. Thanks.

You can change the audio delay for each device under the web GUI player
settings to get them perfectly in sync :-)


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reniera
2012-03-14 22:13:00 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695743 Wrote:
> > And the larger fraction live with the bugs and or don't know how to
> > file a bug report or vote on one.
>
> They can get in touch with support. Support probably can't help, but
> they
> would raise issues if they got repeated complaints about the same
> problem.
>
> --
>
> Michael

You don't call support for that. improvement requests are not problems.
That information, you can get it from here. For free. But noone seems to
care at logitech. The issue is that this forum is run by techies.
Hopefully someone from marketing or product management will start
reading this forum before a competing product arrives on the market.


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reniera
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pssc
2012-03-26 13:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Looking at the 7.8 tree in meld, it seems to be missing fixes for bugs
15001, 17422 and 17885. Both in the change log and in the code... is
that intentional?

Thought I'd ask the question before the tree's diverge to far.

Thanks.

Phill.


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pssc
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gharris999
2012-03-14 07:39:51 UTC
Permalink
mherger;695588 Wrote:
> If LMS still has that name by then anyway :-).
If there is to be a name change, and assuming that you'll be following
the tradition here of ever longer service names, may I humbly suggest:

LogitechMediaAggregatorOverthruster, or LMAO for short.

(Apologies to Buckaroo Banzai ;))


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gharris999
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pssc
2012-03-26 14:56:27 UTC
Permalink
There seem to be missing bugs fixes from 7.7 tree.

Looking at the 7.8 tree in meld, it seems to be missing fixes for bugs
15001, 17422 and 17885. Both in the change log and in the code... is
that intentional?

Thought I'd ask the question before the tree's diverge to far.

Thanks.

Phill.

mherger;695588 Wrote:
> > Is LMS 7.8 just a continuation of 7.7 bug fixes or is there going to
> be
> > anything new?
>
> It will be a major update.
>
> > If there is something new going into 7.8 any news/hints about what
> > it/they will be?
>
> Make the thing nicer to use. Eg. my first checkin to SP 7.8 is to
> loosen
> the upgrade/downgrade mechanism: when 7.8.0 is being released, but you
>
> prefer to stick with 7.7.7 for a while, you might no longer see the
> firmware screen whenever you switch from LMS to mysb.com.
>
> If LMS still has that name by then anyway :-).
>
> --
>
> Michael


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Michael Herger
2012-03-26 15:42:03 UTC
Permalink
> There seem to be missing bugs fixes from 7.7 tree.

Andy updated about an hour or two ago. Should be fine now.

--

Michael
bonze
2012-03-28 11:05:46 UTC
Permalink
So what's 7.7.3 ?


--
bonze

LMS Version: 7.8
TranquilPC T2-WHS-A3 - WHS 2011
2x Touch, 3x SB3
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Mnyb
2012-03-28 12:44:31 UTC
Permalink
bonze;698037 Wrote:
> So what's 7.7.3 ?

The bug fix beta, where back to the usual structure .

7.7.2 released version

7.7.x (now 7.7.3) beta where relatively safe fixes are tested, and
usually a better option than the release .
This will eventually becomme the next minor release .

7.8 a more adventurous beta with new untested features, this can be
more unreliable (as for example yesterdays version 333903 that did not
work at all) not granatueed to actually work at all.
The aim is a future major release .


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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atz6975
2012-06-26 07:42:40 UTC
Permalink
HeadBanger wrote:
> You can change the audio delay for each device under the web GUI player
> settings to get them perfectly in sync :-)

manual synching seems to beat the purpose of synchronized play... are
you serious?


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Mnyb
2012-06-26 17:09:52 UTC
Permalink
atz6975 wrote:
> manual synching seems to beat the purpose of synchronized play... are
> you serious?

Those settings serves a purpose , if the delay is always and constantly
the same, you only have to adjust it once .

Also ther is cases when sync can't work without the help of this. For
example many HT receivers with some digital DRC and eq etc , the
processing will introduce a delay that can not be known to the server
unless you set it yourself .

There is some delay trough my processor and digital speakers that I
adjusted for .

But that can be more finicky than you migth like , from where should it
sync ,you need to listen equidistant to all sources than also go to each
room and judge how fluttery it sounds and make a compromise judged from
where you listen mostly .

Even if the sound comes out at the exact same moment in two players does
guarantee subjectively good sync in all locations sound is not very
fast, if you are extremely close to one player and crank up the volume
on the one farthest away how does that sound to you ?

But a reasonable compromise can often be found, it's often ok on not to
crazy volumes so that the closest player dominates the sound and the
other are synced enough to not interfere in an irritating way .


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HeadBanger
2012-06-27 22:25:36 UTC
Permalink
atz6975 wrote:
> manual synching seems to beat the purpose of synchronized play... are
> you serious?

Yes I am. LMS cannot know of every component's effect in your chain.
E.g. if your lounge amplifier applied a 1ms delay how would LMS know
that????


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copperstate
2012-07-01 09:30:10 UTC
Permalink
Does anybody know what changed in the latest lms build
(LogitechMediaServer-7.8.0-1340607538) ?


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