Discussion:
Squeezeboxes UPnP/DLNA client ?
nicolas75
2011-08-31 19:24:09 UTC
Permalink
I read a few threads about UPnP/DLNA implementation in LMS.

Unfortunately it seems to me that everything is about LMS being DLNA
server for others devices than squeezeboxes.

As far as I am concerned, I am only interested in the opposite
behavior.

Is there anything planned in order to use Squeezeboxes (especially the
Touch) as UPnP/DLNA client of third party UpnP/DLNA server (I mean
server not developped by Logitech) ?

Note that I am only interested in playing music files, mainly flacs.

I couldn't find clear information about that.
Sorry if I missed it.


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Michael Herger
2011-09-01 08:21:00 UTC
Permalink
> Is there anything planned in order to use Squeezeboxes (especially the
> Touch) as UPnP/DLNA client of third party UpnP/DLNA server (I mean
> server not developped by Logitech) ?

We don't comment on product plans. But it's unlikely the current hardware
will ever see this feature. The architecture is too much server centered
to make this easily available. Sure, it _could_ be done, but at an effort
and cost Logitech most likely isn't willing to spend.

I think limited support is there though. If you're still willing to run
SBS somewhere then it should be able to translate UPnP directories into SB
readable form. I'm not sure how reliably it's working though.

--

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erland
2011-09-01 16:13:55 UTC
Permalink
mherger;654559 Wrote:
> > Is there anything planned in order to use Squeezeboxes (especially
> the
> > Touch) as UPnP/DLNA client of third party UpnP/DLNA server (I mean
> > server not developped by Logitech) ?
>
> We don't comment on product plans. But it's unlikely the current
> hardware
> will ever see this feature. The architecture is too much server
> centered
> to make this easily available. Sure, it _could_ be done, but at an
> effort
> and cost Logitech most likely isn't willing to spend.
>
> I think limited support is there though. If you're still willing to run
>
> SBS somewhere then it should be able to translate UPnP directories into
> SB
> readable form. I'm not sure how reliably it's working though.
>
Is this available also on TinySBS on the Touch ?
I can see that it has the Slim/Utils/UPnPMediaServer.pm module but I
think it's disabled by default since "noupnp" preference is set to 1 by
default.

Or was the UPnP client only available through the web interface (which
isn't available on TinySBS) ?


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nicolas75
2011-09-01 18:17:57 UTC
Permalink
I can hardly understand where Logitech is going.
Logitech sells hardware, it is not a software company.

Logitech customers buy and pay for hardware (Squeezebox, Revue,
whatever ...)
They don't pay for Logitech server which is available to download and
free.

I can understand Logitech want to develop a server (LMS), in order to
be sure to have some software tested and available for their hardware.
But what is the point to make it mandatory ?
It is a complete nonsense to me, and seem to go against Logitech
hardware sales.

When a hardware TV company (Sony, Sharp, Samsung, whatever ...) sells a
TV with DLNA features, the main point, the only important one, is to be
a good DLNA client.
They don't start complicated server projects, it is not their job.

There are a bunch of free DLNA servers available.
What is the point to re-invent the wheel, and start another "me too"
project ?

I don't know who is Logitech squeezebox product line manager, but I am
more and more puzzled by their policy.

They can make money with good hardware able to connect to popular
servers.
They cannot make money with a home-made server software nobody will
ever pay for.
If this software is mandatory for their hardware, it will only prevent
customers to buy hardware, if the server is not competitive regarding
other software server made by real software companies.

It doesn't harm to have a server from Logitech, but I am quite sure not
being a good client is meant to lead to disaster.


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slate
2011-09-01 18:36:02 UTC
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nicolas75;654695 Wrote:
> When a hardware TV company (Sony, Sharp, Samsung, whatever ...) sells a
> TV with DLNA features, the main point, the only important one, is to be
> a good DLNA client.

Hmm what are the definition of a good DLNA client? most TVs cant do
nothing unless the server pampers it and convert everything to 1-2
formats that the TV can handle.

I can see why you question the LMS project and in part I agree with
you.
People in the know are welcome to educate me; but from my understanding
UPnP/DLNA is a very basic protocol. To simple for the XBOX extender
functionality and even for Squeezebox.

One reason to implement it is because it is a buzz word that you need
to have on you feature list; because people thinks that they need to
have it.

A similar story; Bang & Olufsen have been doing multiroom solutions for
decades with their Beolink. Back in 88-90 the Japanese companies
suggested to make a common interface to be used to interconnect and
control the different parts of your hifi setup. B&O look at the draft
and reject it. Way to simple for their usage.

Anyway someone in Logitech think they need too have it, so who are we
to argue


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 10:41:38 UTC
Permalink
slate;654700 Wrote:
> Hmm what are the definition of a good DLNA client? most TVs cant do
> nothing unless the server pampers it and convert everything to 1-2
> formats that the TV can handle.
>
You precisely stated it, a good client plays efficiently and reliably
most common formats with good UI
There are good clients, and bad ones.

slate;654700 Wrote:
>
> One reason to implement it is because it is a buzz word that you need
> to have on you feature list; because people thinks that they need to
> have it.
>
I have no problem with the availability of a Logitech server.
What I cannot understand is that Logitech hardware requires this
server, making the whole thing a closed solution.

At least let's hope Logitech do not plan to start a new OS project to
make something better than Windows 7 or Mac OS, or linux ... and
required to install Logitech server software ...


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erland
2011-09-01 19:07:03 UTC
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nicolas75;654695 Wrote:
> I can hardly understand where Logitech is going.
> Logitech sells hardware, it is not a software company.
>
Not sure that's the case these days, at least not in the media segment,
I'm fairly sure both Squeezebox and Revue is more software than
hardware.

nicolas75;654695 Wrote:
>
> There are a bunch of free DLNA servers available.
> What is the point to re-invent the wheel, and start another "me too"
> project ?
>
I'm guessing they plan to offer something better than Twonky, Tversity,
MiniDLNA, WMP and others. It doesn't sound like that's the case on short
terms but there has to be some plan on longer terms else the whole LMS
effort is pretty pointless, why invest in developing your own server if
someone else has already done it for you more or less for free ?

If LMS video/picture part is opened up for third party plugins in
similar fashion as the audio part, it can become something really
great. Hopefully someone within Logitech understands this.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 10:47:05 UTC
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erland;654706 Wrote:
> I'm guessing they plan to offer something better than Twonky, Tversity,
> MiniDLNA, WMP and others. It doesn't sound like that's the case on
> short terms but there has to be some plan on longer terms else the
> whole LMS effort is pretty pointless, why invest in developing your own
> server if someone else has already done it for you more or less for free
> ?
>
> If LMS video/picture part is opened up for third party plugins in
> similar fashion as the audio part, it can become something really
> great. Hopefully someone within Logitech understands this.

I am everything but confident in their ability to offer something
really better.
(even something as good would be pointless, you have to be better ...)
What I am expecting (and I only use audio), is the ability to connect
the Squeezeboxes to a standard server with a good client.
That is mandatory to use hardware efficiently.
A software server could be a plus, but is useless without a good
client.


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Michael Herger
2011-09-02 10:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Nicolas - what DLNA server are you using? Does it provide all the features
you'd want?

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nicolas75
2011-09-02 11:23:51 UTC
Permalink
mherger;654873 Wrote:
> Nicolas - what DLNA server are you using? Does it provide all the
> features
> you'd want?
>
> --
>
> Michael

I am not using one by now (I tried some a few monthes ago just for
testing purpose, the versions I tried are now obsolete).
The main reason for that ?
My actual hardware is a squeezebox Touch, and as I far as I understood,
I cannot really use it with another server than Logitech servers (SBS,
LMS, TinySBS or mysqueezebox.com)

Like a lot of people, I do not want to be stuck with one software
solution.
Especially not with what I called another "me too" project, while
several good projects are available elsewhere.

My question is to try to guess if Logitech hardware will be opened to
third party servers (a requirement for me), or if I will have to forget
about this solution.
Cannot answer yet since I don't even know if the squeezebox product
line will have a future or not.

The features I want are simple.

Only audio (radio streams, flac and mp3, with 24 bit support).
Something I could name a "network sound card" (by analogy with popular
usb external sound card)
This is what the Touch should be in my opinion.

There are USB audio devices, I am waiting for a nerwork audio device
without specific audio server required.


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Michael Herger
2011-09-02 11:37:41 UTC
Permalink
>> Nicolas - what DLNA server are you using? Does it provide all the
>> features you'd want?
>
> I am not using one by now (I tried some a few monthes ago just for
> testing purpose, the versions I tried are now obsolete).

Before you opt for DLNA, make sure you find a server which does suffice
your needs. You might be disappointed to find out that there's a good
reason to run SBS instead of a poor DLNA server :-).

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pcourtney
2011-09-06 19:33:17 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654884 Wrote:
> There are USB audio devices, I am waiting for a network audio device
> without specific audio server required.

I am also waiting for both a USB3 and NAS drive Nicolas, and
fortunately my prayers have been answered by an innovative company in
Taiwan called InXtron

http://www.inxtron.com/faq/216-nas-or-das-which-one-should-i-buy

hang on buddy, because this will be a very useful and simple way to
realise what you want, with or without Logitech in tow :-)


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pcourtney
2011-09-06 19:34:53 UTC
Permalink
also interesting, it had to happen I guess !

http://www.inxtron.com/software/mobile-app-cloud-lan-disk


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pcourtney
2011-09-06 19:36:26 UTC
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and just like you wanted Nicolas, a fast and easy file server for you

http://www.inxtron.com/software/mobile-app-cloud-lan-disk


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nicolas75
2011-09-06 22:12:27 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;656015 Wrote:
> and just like you wanted Nicolas, a fast and easy file server for you
>
> http://www.inxtron.com/software/mobile-app-mycloud

Thanks, I 'll have a look.
By the way, I started a new thread more visible in the Touch section

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=90147

related to bugs

Browser folders for Touch with TinySBS
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17545

Browser folders for SBS (especially with Windows 7)
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17546

and still this one for "Enable turn off autoscanning on tinysc"
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16564


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chrisinparis
2011-09-02 13:31:01 UTC
Permalink
When I was looking for a new TV earlier this year, DLNA was on my
shopping list. As I got closer to buying my TV, I looked at DLNA more
closely and it seemed a worthless four letter acronym. So worthless
that I abondoned my research straight way.

What turned me off? No support for .ISO (got quite a few DVDs in ISO
format), dodgy subtitle support, uncertainty about seeking within the
file, and the general observation as slate above puts it so well
regarding good DLNA clients "most TVs cant do nothing unless the server
pampers it and convert everything to 1-2 formats that the TV can
handle".

My TV has a very capable media player for USB devices, and if I'm
brave/foolhardy enough can be hacked so that it will treat CIFS/NFS
shares as 'local' drives. If eventually this is not good enough, then
I'll go towards a 'Popocorn Hour' solution (the videao equivalent of
the squeezebox).

BTW, I got a NAS about 7 years ago. It had a version of Twonky DLNA
server on it, and so had 'iTunes functionality'. I started looking
around as to how to use this, came across the 'Roku Soundbridge' and
then quickly learnt about the SB3 and Sonos kit. I loved the design
and what I read sound quality; I was also very impressed with the slim
server software, even if that meant abandoning the NAS-as-music-server
idea and having some sort of server.

No regrets. Long live slimproto :)
p.s. for what it's worth, Apple also seem to think that DLNA is a
worthless pile of...


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
I have tried several usb audio devices.

Cheap external USB dacs.
Expensive professional or hifi ones.

All of them can be seen as external usb audio sound card.
They are usually automatically recognised by Windows 7, or come with
their "drivers", what could be seen as the "client".

Usually they do not provide server software whatsoever.
All of them can be used with VLC, foobar, Jriver, whatever audio
software you want, running a server or not.

That is the job of a hardware device company selling a usb audio
device.
They of course sometime provide their own softwares, but none is
mandatory to take advantage of the hardware device.

I am convinced that it is what is going to happen with network (wired
or not) devices instead of usb.
It is straightforward and desirable behavior.

If Logitech doesn't do it, another company will.

I don't believe in a hardware product of this kind, requiring its own
proprietary server.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 14:23:42 UTC
Permalink
When your software is good enough so that everybody want to use it, you
can force people to buy expensive hardware, tying the hardware and
software together.
That's more or less what happens with Apple and Mac OS

When you have great competitive quality hardware like squeezebox Touch,
and not competitive nor reliable software that a few people like, but a
lot of people dislike, I cannot understand what is the point to tie
them together, and prevent the use of widely appreciated other
software.

I would be curious to hear about the reasons which led Logitech
executives to decide this policy.


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Mnyb
2011-09-02 14:25:25 UTC
Permalink
but a squeezebox is not a " long wire to your soundcard" it's made
specifically to not be a part of the drivers and particular OS quirks
etc .
I've foundly remeber kernel streaming and asio for all etc to
circumvent windows kmixer etc, no thanks.

it's main use is the other way around , your are NOT sittting in front
of a computer, the server is elsewhere you are selecting music by the
player interface ir controll , controller or app.

it is also a multiroom solution with the possibility to sync players
and control them from each other ( not possible with DLNA).

of course all conected players can play different music, or be synced
in groups, try to have 14 soundcards installed on the PC ?

You not looking at the product for your needs, you need a long catv or
rg-6 cable to your dac or ht-amp from your pc and your done, you can
then push audio to your stereo from your fav desktop app.

squeezebox can be controlled from a web-UI that the server provides,
but that UI is avaible on the whole network not only the computer
running the server. thisbweb-Ui is also for settings etc.

Google slimdevices and slimp3 logitech bougth this company a couple of
years ago, slimdevices started 2001 with thier first player slimp3 the
DLNA comitte was formed 2003 wonder when the first working dnla
applications where launched.

so the SBS server servs 9 different kinds of players from the early
slimp3 to the nevest Touch and you can use all of them together.

I supose Logitech could develop another product losely based on the
squeezebox player to be a "ethernet soundcard" .
they are after all a hardware company, they have countless variants of
mice keyboards and PC speakers.
iPod docks and whatnots, but the current Touch seems a little expensive
and ovespeced for the purpose.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 14:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Few people are interested in multiroom.
Sonos changed its communication because of that.
They still do multiroom for those who want, but don't frighten people
searching a simple solution with multiroom.

Can you explain why the multiroom capability of SBS is not compatible
with the ability to be a single non multiroom client with another
software ?

Nobody says SBS should not exist.
I say you should be able not to use SBS if you don't want SBS ...


I disagree about the price problem for the Touch.
Most usb dacs at Touch price point are not better than Touch internal
dac.
They are still widely considered as good bargain ... and the Touch is
nicer and more capable.

Touch problem is not the price.
Touch problem is SBS


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Phil Leigh
2011-09-02 14:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Lots of people want multiple-room...


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 15:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;654927 Wrote:
> Lots of people want multiple-room...

Yes, that's true.

And a lot more don't care and think a multiroom system is probably too
complicated for them.

That's why Sonos changed its communication.
They probably thought that it is better to have multi-room for those
who want it, but to be simple and reliable for those who don't care.

I think Sonos took a wise decision.


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Mnyb
2011-09-02 15:20:17 UTC
Permalink
SBS is not a problem ;) and generaly disliked ? It's the main reason
that the products performs so well a lot of whats going on on the
player is in reality performed by the server and it is varius plugins
and addons in the background.

for example i can play spotify on my old SB3 ano 2006 that players fw
and memory won't fit anymore addons and services, but due to
servertranscoding and a nice plugin this is possible.

and it is also possible to play audio formats not supported by the old
hardware with the server so slimdevices/logitech has an ambition to
futureproof thier products .

Imho turning the hardware to a dlna player and a usb soundcard would
truly turn it into a bland " me too " product that would be gone in a
couple of months.

what the masses wants it's neither dlna or sbs they do not want to be
tied to a computer/server/nas at all.

they want a spotify box or pandora napster box and similar for webradio
and then airtunes to beam music to their friends stereo with thier
phones, if they own any music at all it's sits in thier phones.

i don't see the problem really if you are prepared to have a fullsize
PC running for just playing music ( i'm not, my mini-itx linux is not
even close to my listening room ) ? You migth as-well just install SBS
? It uses minimal resources compared to many programs and runs in the
background.

have you actually used sbs if you already decided thats it's bad ? It
is not perfect and lack features imho but it is not that bad, pros are
still greater than the cons.

there are great iPad apps avaible too.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 15:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;654937 Wrote:
> SBS is not a problem ;) and generaly disliked ? It's the main reason
> that the products performs so well a lot of whats going on on the
> player is in reality performed by the server and it is varius plugins
> and addons in the background.
>

I suggest you have a look about poll threads concerning pro and cons of
squeezebox Touch product line.

7.6.0 release was widely recognised as a disaster.

Well, as long as Logitech can count with you to make enough money with
the product line, and keep it alive, everything is fine :-)


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erland
2011-09-02 16:17:58 UTC
Permalink
First of all, neither the masses nor the enthusiasts want a server, they
neither want SBS nor a generic UPnP server. The only people who want a
server are computer geeks (persons that know they are geeks and persons
who are geeks without yet knowing it)

As I look at it there are:
1. Players
2. Music

As long as the player is able to play the music I'm happy, I really
don't care where the music is stored and served, I just want to access
it:
1. From anywhere, any room and both from stationary devices like the
Touch, portable devices like the Radio and mobile devices like an
Android/iOS phone.
2. Without the need to turn manually turn on a computer
3. Without the need to have a stationary computer, the future regarding
computers lies in laptops and tablets, while stationary computers and
even more so servers are the past. Only geeks wants to have a server in
their home.
4. Without any network wires, everything is going to be wireless in the
future.
5. I want to be able to control it using the remote control device I
have in my hand, it might be a laptop, a IR remote, a tablet or a phone
depending on which room I'm currently in.

Via third party apps, SBS and Squeezebox currently supports 1 and 5.
With TinySBS on the Touch they would have been able to support 2, 3 and
4, if the Squeezebox Touch hardware would have been up to the task.
Unfortunately the Touch hardware isn't good enough and currently
Logitech seems to focus more on Windows and OSX than the operating
systems which likely are going to be used in a "non computer" server
like a NAS, Sheevaplug, Vortexbox or player with built in server
support.

The DLNA/UPnP standard might sound good because it's a standard but in
reality it's too complex and it's not clearly specified in some areas
which makes it hard for manufacturers to make sure their devices work
with all possible servers and vice versa. It's also important to know
that while DLNA might work good on the TV in the living room it really
isn't designed to handle a multi room music streaming system with smart
playlists and similar things. DLNA/UPnP can be the base for something
like this but you need to build a proprietary solution on top of it to
get it to work.

Regarding multi room there are:
1. Possibility to select and play music in any room in the house
2. Possibility to synchronize music between different rooms

I'm fairly sure that while point 1 is important, point 2 isn't used
much by most people today. The main reason being that in most families
a family member is lucky if he/she can listen to the music he/she likes
in one of the the rooms, it's probably pretty rare that everyone else in
the family want to listen to the same things in all the other rooms. So
in my mind it's important to be able to play music in any room but it's
a lot less important to be able to play synchronized music between two
or more rooms.

Still, if LMS with its UPnP server would be opened up for third party
plugins in similar fashion as SlimDevices did with the old SBS, I feel
it might be possible for third parties to extend it to be something
really great. Unfortunately, this really doesn't seem to be a priority
at the moment, I might have missed something but the last time I
checked the UPnP support in LMS wasn't possible to extend/enhance with
third party plugins at all. Without third party plugins support the
UPnP effort in LMS is more or less pointless in my mind, because it
will be like SBS without any third party plugins/applets. It will only
support the features which Logitech decides to develop and we all know
that the Squeezebox team has been decreased in size more and more
during the last years. So without third party plugins support I'm
fairly sure there will be better UPnP servers available than LMS.

Regarding Squeezebox and proprietary server, it's important to know
that the protocol used by both the old and new Squeezebox models is
completely opened. Anyone that wants can implement their own server for
Squeezebox players, there are a few servers currently being developed
but none of them currently contains anywhere near all the features
supported by SBS. Most(all?) of the custom built servers I know of are
designed to require less resources to make them possible to run on a
"non computer" like hardware.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 17:31:48 UTC
Permalink
erland;654952 Wrote:
>
> Regarding Squeezebox and proprietary server, it's important to know
> that the protocol used by both the old and new Squeezebox models is
> completely opened. Anyone that wants can implement their own server for
> Squeezebox players, there are a few servers currently being developed
> but none of them currently contains anywhere near all the features
> supported by SBS. Most(all?) of the custom built servers I know of are
> designed to require less resources to make them possible to run on a
> "non computer" like hardware.

Do you have more information about that ?
I didn't really searched about this possibility.
I am not aware of any existing possibility to get rid of SBS, nor
TinySBS scan (which is always automatic, which makes it almost unusable
for me).

Where can I find those protocol specifications ?
Would they allow to develop some internal client in TinySBS, allowing
to access third party server or music software, without any TinySBS
scan ?


--
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erland
2011-09-02 18:02:51 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654970 Wrote:
> Do you have more information about that ?
> I didn't really searched about this possibility.
> I am not aware of any existing possibility to get rid of SBS, nor
> TinySBS scan (which is always automatic, which makes it almost unusable
> for me).
>
> Where can I find those protocol specifications ?
>
The documentation isn't completely accurate but the basic information
are here:
- Older Squeezebox models (Classic, Boom, Transporter, Receiver):
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SlimProtoTCPProtocol
- Newer Squeezebox models (Controller, Radio, Touch): Not that well
documented, there are some information here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SBS_SqueezePlay_interface
-- It's also possible to enable networking.cometd debug logging in SBS
Settings/Advanced/Logging to see the messages sent and received
-- There are some generic documentation here:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/jive/7.6/trunk/squeezeplay/src/squeezeplay/doc/html/index.html?revision=HEAD&view=co
-- And some more information about the menu protocol here (save it and
open in browser):
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/jive/7.6/trunk/squeezeplay/src/squeezeplay/doc/html/jiveMLON.html


ScottM also started to do some documentation in the following thread,
so that's probably worth a read and maybe worth contacting him if you
like more information:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86418

There are a couple of third party servers:
- ScrawnyServer: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73646
- Dwite: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88922
- Squeezed: http://code.google.com/p/squeezed/

And there are a number of third party players like:
- iPeng and SqueezePad for iOS (closed source, but the developers can
probably help answering questions)
- Squeeze Player for Android (closed source, but the developer can
probably help answering questions)
- SoftSqueeze: http://softsqueeze.sourceforge.net/
- SqueezePlay: The firmware of the new Squeezebox models:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/jive/7.6/trunk/squeezeplay/

nicolas75;654970 Wrote:
>
> Would they allow to develop some internal client in TinySBS, allowing
> to access third party server or music software, without any TinySBS
> scan ?
>
If you are talking about Squeezebox Touch (or possibly Radio or
Controller) this is definitely possible.

As I look at it, there are two ways to do it:

1. Implement a third party lua Applet which can be installed through
the Settings/Advanced/Applet Installer menu. Will typically be exposed
as a new top level menu on the device I guess.

or

2. Patch any binaries or source code and do whatever you like. The
SqueezeOS based players (Controller, Radio, Touch) is completely
hackable, so you can login as root and do whatever you like. Also, most
of the SqueezePlay/SqueezeOS source code is open source, so you are
officially allowed to modify and redistribute your changes, there are a
few exceptions regarding artwork(icons/logos) and some of the drivers
which only can be modified and redistributed by Logitech, but
everything you see on the screen can be changed without permission by
Logitech.

For what you describe, it sounds like alternative 1 would be the best
option. As an example, you can implement a UPnP client that
communicates with the UPnP server of your choice instead of using the
built-in TinySBS or the full SBS on a computer. There are some
information available about how to make third party applets here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezePlay_Applet_Developing_Guide
But if this is something you like to do, don't be afraid to ask
specific questions in the "Developers" section of the forum and those
of use who have knowledge in the area will try to answer as good as we
can.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 15:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;654937 Wrote:
>
> have you actually used sbs if you already decided thats it's bad ? It
> is not perfect and lack features imho but it is not that bad, pros are
> still greater than the cons.
>
> there are great iPad apps avaible too.

I had a Classic, and now a Touch, daily use for nearly 4 years now.
So the answer is yes, I have actually used SBS.
I actually decided it is not reliable and user friendly enough.
When I see so simple and straightforward features not implemented in
the first place (nobody should ever have to ask for some of them, there
is a real geek way of thinking in this product), I actually want to be
able to use the Touch without SBS.


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Phil Leigh
2011-09-02 16:20:30 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654948 Wrote:
> I had a Classic, and now a Touch, daily use for nearly 4 years now.
> So the answer is yes, I have actually used SBS.
> I actually decided it is not reliable and user friendly enough.
> When I see so simple and straightforward features not implemented in
> the first place (nobody should ever have to ask for some of them, there
> is a real geek way of thinking in this product), I actually want to be
> able to use the Touch without SBS (I may use SBS when I think it is
> fine, but not always, may be never)

I'm interested in what you think is missing from SBS. IME it has more
USEFUL features than the majority of competing products.

I know you will claim they are "geeky" but MIP and INGUZ integration
will keep me using SBS in preference to any vanilla DLNA solution.

If you look at the combination of iPeng and SBS, it's pretty much
unbeatable. The only major feature I'm missing is Muso-style navigation
through my library.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 17:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;654953 Wrote:
> I'm interested in what you think is missing from SBS. IME it has more
> USEFUL features than the majority of competing products.
>
> I know you will claim they are "geeky" but MIP and INGUZ integration
> will keep me using SBS in preference to any vanilla DLNA solution.
>
> If you look at the combination of iPeng and SBS, it's pretty much
> unbeatable. The only major feature I'm missing is Muso-style navigation
> through my library.

I am not really asking for DLNA specifically.
I suggested it as an example, the real goal is to get rid of SBS
(especially of the necessity of the scan)

SBS is not reliable enough, each software upgrade comes with countless
problems for many people.
It is not a finish nor enough tested product in my opinion.

I was really interested in the Touch with TinySBS.

The most stupid thing is that I think that fixing this bug
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16564 (I called that a
bug, not a enhancement, because it makes TinySBS almost unusable) would
make it an acceptable solution.

The real pity is that nobody will ever make me believe it is so simple
and straightforward to implement.

I cannot understand how beta tester could spend a few days (I would say
a few hours) with TinySBS without figuring out that this feature is
mandatory.

Like a lot of people, you are telling about plugins.
Well, plugins are fine, but I don't want to have to install a plugin to
get basic straightforward behavior.

The biggest problem with SBS is that you cannot get rid of the scan
process.

When I have a computer available, I should obviously be able to play a
specific file manually chosen without scanning.

Check MediaMonkey, you can make whatever you want.
Basic and instant playing is simple and straightforward with it, even
if there a possibility to scan a browse a library.

This basic and simple behavior is simply NOT POSSIBLE with SBS ...


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Mnyb
2011-09-02 18:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Hmm with normal SBS you can at least turn of auto scan and do it at your
own leisure.

or scan a file/album at the time via browse music folder. BMF is not
scan free but only scans the selected file or folder .

if one knows the code and perl it should not be impossible to disable
autoscan ? Afiak it is the same server ? With some stuff added and some
things disabled.


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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erland
2011-09-02 18:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Mnyb;654974 Wrote:
> Hmm with normal SBS you can at least turn of auto scan and do it at your
> own leisure.
>
> or scan a file/album at the time via browse music folder. BMF is not
> scan free but only scans the selected file or folder .
>
As far as I know, it will still scan initially when you configure the
Music Folder, even if auto scan is disabled.

As a side note, this is also the case with all the UPnP/DLNA servers
I've tried. So if the important thing is to avoid scanning, I'm not
sure UPnP/DLNA is the answer.

Mnyb;654974 Wrote:
>
> if one knows the code and perl it should not be impossible to disable
> autoscan ? Afiak it is the same server ? With some stuff added and some
> things disabled.
>
Correct and it's definitely possible to disable the auto scanning by
patching the code, you probably also want to add some possibility to
manually trigger a scan if you do this. The reason it hasn't been done
yet is probably because everyone with the knowledge knows that even
without auto scanning the Touch hardware isn't good enough to handle a
full size library with TinySBS running, so it's not worth the effort.

Ditching TinySBS and replacing it with a simple BMF server which could
be used when a friend brings a USB stick would probably be a better
option, but I don't think this use case is common enough to make it
interesting for Logitech or any of the third party developers.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
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erland
2011-09-02 18:10:53 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654971 Wrote:
>
> The NUMBER ONE feature everybody wants, is to be able to play a
> specific file a friend brought to you instantly.
> It means you should not have to wait to play it, not even 10 seconds,
> whatever hardware you are using.
> All music software have that basic and obvious feature.
>
Just out of interest, how does your friend typically bring you music ?
Are we talking about a music file on a USB stick, on a iPhone, on a
Android or other mobile phone, as a URL to a internet stream or
something else ? What's the most common way ?

I'm just asking because for myself the most common scenario is that my
friend just mention it and doesn't actually have access to the music
file at the time, so I just pickup the iPad and search for it on
Spotify or YouTube and play it on my Squeezebox.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 18:34:30 UTC
Permalink
erland;654976 Wrote:
> Just out of interest, how does your friend typically bring you music ?
> Are we talking about a music file on a USB stick, on a iPhone, on a
> Android or other mobile phone, as a URL to a internet stream or
> something else ? What's the most common way ?
>
> I'm just asking because for myself the most common scenario is that my
> friend just mention it and doesn't actually have access to the music
> file at the time, so I just pickup the iPad and search for it on
> Spotify or YouTube and play it on my Squeezebox.

As far as I am concerned, don't know if you can extrapolate, I would
say

- external usb device (usb stick or external disk)
- memory cards
- url to internet service (usually poor sound quality)
- device like Smartphones or an Ipods

As far as Touch is concerned, I am mostly thinking about USB stick or
memory card, either directly plug to the Touch, or through the
computer.

The most stupid thing in this story is the following :

- I have a computer with internal SSD and Windows 7 x64
- I boot it faster than a Touch
- Almost every information used for basic and daily search are present
in the file names of my flac files
- The search field of Windows 7 file explorer (with SSD, indexing
disable) allow me to find almost instantly whatever I want without
using tags ...

This means that for me a simple software with an "Open file" button to
select music files ans send it to the Touch, would be better, faster
and more user friendly than SBS database browsing ...

When you have a computer available, the number one basic method to
choose a file on it, is to browse your folders ...

Allow SBS or TinySBS to disable any scan whatsoever, and provide simple
folder browsing, you get something simple 99% of people will use without
any hassle ...

When a friend brings you a file, why should it be more complicated than
bringing a CD ?
(I forgot that, a friend can bring a CD, you rip it, and use the files,
it still happens sometimes)

Now tell him than with TinySBS, you will have to rescan (how many hours
?) your disk if you disconnect ot to play your friend usb stick, or tell
him you have to copy his file in the specific music folder for SBS, and
wait for the scan ...
Any sensible person will ask you if you are not insane ...


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erland
2011-09-02 18:57:17 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654984 Wrote:
>
> The most stupid thing in this story is the following :
>
> - I have a computer with internal SSD and Windows 7 x64
> - I boot it faster than a Touch
> - Almost every information used for basic and daily search are present
> in the file names of my flac files
> - The search field of Windows 7 file explorer (with SSD, indexing
> disabled to save SSD life) allow me to find almost instantly whatever I
> want without using tags ...
>
> This means that for me a simple software with an "Open file" button to
> select music files and send them to the Touch, would be better, faster
> and more user friendly than SBS database browsing ...
>
Are you planing to keep the music files on the computer ?
Or on a external USB drive attached to the Touch ?

I'm asking because I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be too hard for someone
to develop a Windows shell extension that made it possible to right
click on a file in Windows and select "Play on Squeezebox". However, I
suspect that would require you to run SBS on the computer since the
paths to the music files wouldn't match if you used TinySBS on the
Touch.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 19:08:11 UTC
Permalink
erland;654990 Wrote:
> Are you planing to keep the music files on the computer ?
> Or on a external USB drive attached to the Touch ?
>
> I'm asking because I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be too hard for someone
> to develop a Windows shell extension that made it possible to right
> click on a file in Windows and select "Play on Squeezebox". However, I
> suspect that would require you to run SBS on the computer since the
> paths to the music files wouldn't match if you used TinySBS on the
> Touch.

The best option for me is to have all your music on an external USB
disk.
Easy to take with you and to backup.
This is my current solution.

I mentionned the internal SSD solution to point out that the search
field of Windows file explorer can be as fast as SBS database browsing,
without any scan and without any tags.
I tested on the SSD typing a few letters in the serach field.
I get the result instantly in a folder containing a total of nearly
10.000 files in 1000 subfolders.
What is the point to scan and create a database in this situation ?

I guess the result will be the same with an external USB3 SSD disk.

Even with actual USB2 external disks, the method is fine, and allow you
to get rid of the scan.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 19:26:58 UTC
Permalink
erland;654990 Wrote:
> However, I suspect that would require you to run SBS on the computer
> since the paths to the music files wouldn't match if you used TinySBS
> on the Touch.

It is not a big problem if you don't have to scan.
Actually, when the computer is off, or when I only listen to internet
radios, I use TinySBS with an USB stick because I don't want to connect
to mysqueezebox.com (often not reliable in Europe)
The real problem with SBS and TinySBS is the scan, nothing else.


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nicolas75
2011-09-02 19:54:10 UTC
Permalink
erland;654990 Wrote:
> I'm asking because I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be too hard for someone
> to develop a Windows shell extension that made it possible to right
> click on a file in Windows and select "Play on Squeezebox".

I don't feel like doing it, not bought a Touch to feel at work.

But with all scanning problems customers experienced, if someone feels
like writing such a plugin (keeping Touch sound quality with 24bits
flacs), and allowing to disable any kind of scan, I suggest Logitech
gives him a percentage on every squeezebox sold.

He would really deserve it :-)


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MrSinatra
2011-09-02 22:30:56 UTC
Permalink
from what i can tell, you want a hardware client that can be used by any
DLNA/upnp server, correct?

so why not get a $99 revue then? or some other dlna client? obviously
logitech has little interest in making their hardware dlna clients,
although i agree its a good idea, and just as crazy, the revue doesn't
support slim proto and one wonders who runs logitech that the revue
wasn't designed from day one to be a slim client.

btw, several years ago i argued that these guys should monitize the
server by selling a small, silent, displayless box that runs a local
server and that they can remotely enter to troubleshoot and update, and
concentrate on only developing that. they could either depricate all
the other flavors or leave the changes and updates to be done by the
community.

i would have paid for such a server box. (u could either connect
storage to it, or map a location[s] for it)

still, having said all that, the server does have HQ audio sound, and i
think a free server that does video and pictures and audio well could
lead to hardware adoptions.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & droid (my home) / duet & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.5b -
win7 ie9 & xp pro sp3 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 -
d-link dir-655 - 49k+ mp3/flac
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
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erland
2011-09-03 06:31:06 UTC
Permalink
MrSinatra;655049 Wrote:
>
> still, having said all that, the server does have HQ audio sound, and i
> think a free server that does video and pictures and audio well could
> lead to hardware adoptions.
>
So do I, if it does it well and it can be extended by third party
add-ons, but with the current priorities I seriously doubt this is
going to be the case, it feels like Logitech is focusing more on "good
enough for Revue before October".

However, an extensible open source based UPnP server which would be
able to manage and serve photo, video and music library would be really
great.

The question is just if Logitech can justify the investment needed to
accomplish something like this if they can't specifically earn money on
the server software. It's completely different with the Squeezebox units
which uses a proprietary protocol which makes it harder for other
manufacturers to take advantage of Logitech's investment in SBS. With a
standard UPnP server, Logitech Revue and similar Logitech UPnP devices
will have to compete with hardware media players from other
manufacturers who didn't have to invest in developing their own server
since they could just use the one provided by Logitech. As I look at
it, the only way Logitech can earn money on the server software is to
use a proprietary protocol only supported by their own hardware players
or by making sure the server software can only run on Logitech hardware
(server box or player with built-in server). I personally believe a
player with built-in server would be the preferred choice as people
would have a hard time justifying investing in a server box that can't
play music by itself. If the server software can be installed and used
on a PC, the competitors are going to be able to use it without having
to invest in any server development, the result is that Logitech will
pay for the investment and the competitors will be able to use it.

The question I'm still asking myself after all this is why Logitech
implement their own UPnP server when there are going to be a lot of
others available on the market with same functionality more or less for
free. My guess is that the main reason is that they feel it's a good
idea to have control of it themselves and that they feel it's a good
way to be able to justify continuous maintenance of server support for
Squeezebox devices.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
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erland
2011-09-03 06:00:43 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;655007 Wrote:
> I don't feel like doing it, not bought a Touch to feel at work.
>
No problem I can understand that.

I guess it's just different for me, if I do something on my spare time
that makes it easier or more interesting to enjoy the music it doesn't
feel like work, it feels more like an investment. But I can understand
your perspective too, development might feel like work for some people
even if they do it to simplify their own usage later.

Unfortunately (for users that want the same thing as you) I'm not
interested in controlling my Squeezebox from a computer and I'm
definitely not interested in controlling it from a Windows based
computer.


--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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bits
2011-09-03 07:01:06 UTC
Permalink
I remember this issue when the first network video players came out. I
screamed they shouldnt need separate software. My video library was
tiny compared to my music library and simple folder browsing was more
than enough. I think I have just become accustomed to Squeezebox
requiring software as it has supported all OS's I care about and I
appreciate the additional speed and features it offers.



Would you guys think Squeezebox would hit the mark if a Squeezebox was
capable of:
-standalone menu and clock
-standalone playback for web and local USB content
-standalone upnp/dlna client for dictated playback via other upnp/dlna
controller/servers
-standalone setup and access to simple folder browsing of any available
network share offered via Windows, Linux and Mac standard protocols?
-local db generation and maintenance for the available network shares*

*This would be the dot point that breaks the idea the most


The issue:
-device requires much more horse power. It is no longer a screen and a
simple decoder running under instruction but a full blown PC. Becomes
much more complex software running on the device and expensive hardware
to handle these things

More of less you'll end up with users with less than ideal performance
unless the Squeezebox was as fast as the users desktop.
It would mean the Squeezebox would end up as a 3ghz CPU, 1gb ram and
numerous fans on it using 70-100w power when in use.
The Squeezebox would become another PC on your network, similar to one
running foobar or similar accessing your media library over the
network.


I never got the problem totally before, but now I understand why I
bought a Squeezebox instead of a new computer running Windows with
Foobar with an IR pickup on a USB port etc. I didn't want another full
size computer.


--
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erland
2011-09-03 07:55:11 UTC
Permalink
bits;655097 Wrote:
>
> You guys are demanding a full PC at the price, power usage and size of
> the Squeezebox. I am telling you that is impossible and no such device
> can exist with current technology..
>
It's not 2005 anymore, start look at the CPU and memory available in
the new Android/iOS based tablets and phones. An mini-itx based small
PC would run SBS at satisfactory speed for most Squeezebox users. Just
look at the $99 Logitech Revue which I think have a 1.2Ghz Intel Atom
Processor & 4GB RAM.

Advanced users like some of the ones in this community might require a
full blown computer but for all normal users it should be possible to
create a player with built-in server that runs at satisfactory speed.

The biggest obstacle for all my friends I've tried to recommend the
Squeezebox to is that they have to have the computer powered on to be
able to listen to music. Also, many of them only have laptops and no
stationary computer. So if Logitech want to reach normal users they
really need to get rid of the computer, there are two ways to do this:
1. Focus on streaming services and ignore locally stored music
- might work for the youths but doesn't work for older people who are
collectors and like to collect music on their hard drive
2. Focus on support playing music from USB drives, UPnP servers or
Windows network shared offered by routers or NAS boxes.
- with a decent processor and memory amount in the player, this
wouldn't be a problem to handle.

The issue by not being able to reach all these normal users is that
Logitech won't be able to get long term economics in the Squeezebox
product line and it will eventually be terminated permanently. So even
if some of us don't like the focus on normal mass market users, this is
where Logitech needs to go if they want to earn money on the Squeezebox.
A smaller company would have other choices but not a big corporation
like Logitech. Just think about the number of people working for
Logitech and think about how many people are currently dedicated on
Squeezebox developement (currently about 2 part time developers and 1
part time tester I think) and think about how small the income from
Squeezebox sales likely is compared to everything else Logitech is
selling, it's very easy for someone higher up in the management chain
to start asking questions why they should continue with this small
scale music streaming things.

So even if the enthusiasts might be better of with a full blown
computer most of the Squeezebox users will be better of with a system
that doesn't require a computer to be powered on. People who want to
browse/play music from the computer are going to look for other
solutions than Squeezebox, so there is no reason on focusing any
efforts on these.


--
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nicolas75
2011-09-03 11:15:59 UTC
Permalink
erland;655089 Wrote:
>
> Unfortunately (for users that want the same thing as you) I'm not
> interested in controlling my Squeezebox from a computer and I'm
> definitely not interested in controlling it from a Windows based
> computer.

What do you think about the possibility to disable any kind of scan in
TinySBS and allow a "browse folders only" mode for TinySBS and the
Touch ?

I thought I could file a bug for this feature (or add a comment in this
one http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16564 )

The problem is I don't know if other Touch customers are interested.
And above all I am not sure TinySBS (even the Touch itself ?) still get
any attention from Logitech management.

Apparently no developer ever thought that providing "browse folder
only" could be a useful workaround for all those who are stuck with
scanning problems (either in SBS or in TinySBS)


--
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Mnyb
2011-09-03 11:41:22 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;655141 Wrote:
> What do you think about the possibility to disable any kind of scan in
> TinySBS and allow a "browse folders only" mode for TinySBS and the
> Touch ?
>
> When TinySBS scans the usb device, listing the files is sub-second.
> This is the scanning process which is too long, and often crash.
>
> I thought I could file a bug for this feature (or add a comment in this
> one http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16564 )
>
> The problem is I don't know if other Touch customers are interested.
> And above all I am not sure TinySBS (even the Touch itself ?) still get
> any attention from Logitech management.
>
> Apparently no developer ever thought that providing "browse folder
> only" could be a useful workaround for all those who are stuck with
> scanning problems (either in SBS or in TinySBS)
> In my opinion, their biggest mistake was to be so confident in their
> hype features (scan, autorescan, database browsing, etc ...) that they
> totally wiped out any basic feature which could satisfying workaround
> for a lot of customers completely stuck, because those "hype features"
> are not reliable enough.
> Every other software I have used still support those basic features,
> and so, nobody can be totally stuck with no workaround available.

Voted.

Tiny SC is always based on the current SBS code afaik and normal SBS
does not auto scan except for the initial install if you don't want to
.
The special mods to make it TinySC is also responsible for the scan
behavior.

When you BMF it scans that folder to get the tags for presentation on
the UI and determine the audioformat. That would be minimum.

A desktop software does something similar it does present title and
artist if such info is in the file even if you play only one file .

But a god user selectable option would be to opt for that info gathered
during BMF would not be present in a the permanent dB .

I voted because in a normal SBS scan problems are always possible to
fix (tidy up your tags, yes ;) ).

But TinySC simply crashes and hits the memory limit of Touch on files
that would work just fine in a large install ?

And the USB SD card options just begs for being used for temporary
collections from friends etc .

Now i use spotify , before spotify I put friends music in a folder in
my library and BMF'ed to it, that works fast enough on a standalone
server to not upset anyone not on speed .

Letting friends use the USB on the Touch would spare me the effort to
have another computer except the server running on such occasion


--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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MrSinatra
2011-09-04 20:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Erland,

i think we basically agree. if i ran logitech my goal would be the
following:

design a displayless, totally silent (save for some leds u could
disable) "revue 2" which has the server built inside, along with its
"player side." make it slim proto compliant. make it able to power
many clients in snyc and as many other dlna/upnp devices as possible.

make it able to record audio and video, and make it work with
"cablecards." if possible, integrate with a program guide, maybe a
free one?

put some limited onboard storage in, like an 8GB smartcard. let it use
USB 3.0 storage and let it map network location for shared storage.

make it integrate with mysb so a user could watch and listen to their
stuff online via the site, (protecting copyrights via login).

make it a fully "open" android platform, that doesn't need rooted, and
have LMS run on droid. use latest droid OS. add an app that would
update your LMS and via user initiation allow logitech to remotely
troubleshoot it.

call it a dream box. but if one existed, i would pay $300-$400 for it,
maybe more if it was done really well.

i would also NOT put wifi in it, recommend most users to ethernet wire
it to the router. but i would make a usb wifi dongle available, at an
extra price. no remote either, besides a very basic infrared.
encourage cell phones, idevices, or harmonies.

so, what do you think of that? it might sound daunting and dreamlike,
but if logitech doesn't do it, someone else will. the tivo is an
example. the good thing is that you could do it in pieces, and a lot
of it would be updated for you. meaning:

the droid OS would handle lots of it, in a single api. the wifi for
instance. and LMS could be the "player" while a totally different app
could handle the cablecard and recording only. after that, then u
could do the mysb integration. in other words, you wouldn't have to
roll everything out at once.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & droid (my home) / duet & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.5b -
win7 ie9 & xp pro sp3 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 -
d-link dir-655 - 49k+ mp3/flac
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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rodry
2011-09-06 09:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Voted for http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16564


--
rodry

Boom - Touch - Radio
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Phil Leigh
2011-09-02 19:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Ŵell we are simply never going to agree on this. I can do so much
more with tags scanned into a database than I can possibly do by
manipulating the name of the files!
My search speed with the cache on ram disk is sub-second... I have 40k
flac files.
I can drop a music file onto my hard disk and play it instantly without
the scan interfering...
seems like we Are talking about different products!


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 19:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;654991 Wrote:
> Ŵell we are simply never going to agree on this. I can do so much
> more with tags scanned into a database than I can possibly do by
> manipulating the name of the files!
> My search speed with the cache on ram disk is sub-second... I have 40k
> flac files.
> I can drop a music file onto my hard disk and play it instantly without
> the scan interfering...
> seems like we Are talking about different products!

Nobody forbid you to tag yours files, mine are tagged.
Nobody says you must not run a database if you feel like it.

But this is no excuse to make basic simple use impossible.
Nothing can justify that.


--
nicolas75
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aubuti
2011-09-02 15:10:02 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654924 Wrote:
> Few people are interested in multiroom.
> Sonos changed its communication because of that.
Right...


+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Filename: sonos1.jpg |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12425|
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
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nicolas75
2011-09-02 15:20:05 UTC
Permalink
aubuti;654933 Wrote:
> Right...

You noticed there is still a screen with multiroom mention (some people
are interested in it).

You certainly noticed also that it is not any more the first point
Sonos is talking about.
Especially since Play:3 is out

One of my Hifi retailer receive information from Sonos telling
multiroom is not advertised too much because it seems too complicated
for average customers.

If someone told you that Sonos stopped multiroom, or erased any trace
of multiroom capability on their website, he was wrong :-)

They simply took care not to mention it too explicitly, because most
people do not care at all, are think it is too complicated ... :-)


--
nicolas75
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bluegaspode
2011-09-02 17:21:37 UTC
Permalink
nicolas75;654924 Wrote:
>
> Sonos changed its communication because of that.
>

So did Logitech quite some time before.
If you look at the packaging of Touch or Radio and the pictures you
won't get the impression that two Touches or Radios could work together
in harmony.

Here in Germany if you go to electronic dealers the Touch+Radio are
placed along the wireless streaming stuff.
Sonos still had his own panel for multiroom streaming only 3 months
ago.


--
bluegaspode

Did you know: *'SqueezePlayer' (www.squeezeplayer.com)* will stream all
your music to your Android device. Take your music everywhere!
Remote Control + Streaming to your iPad? *'Squeezebox + iPad =
SqueezePad ' (www.squeezepad.com)*
Want to see a Weather Forecast on your Radio/Touch/Controller ? => why
not try my 'Weather Forecast Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=73827)
Want to use the Headphones with your Controller ? => why not try my
'Headphone Switcher Applet'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=67139)
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pcourtney
2011-09-06 18:05:23 UTC
Permalink
chrisinparis;654905 Wrote:
> for what it's worth, Apple also seem to think that DLNA is a worthless
> pile of...

yes that maybe true, but Persona Software are more than happy that
Apple feel that way :-)

directly stream your iPod music to all your DLNA certified devices
around the home - this includes XBox 360, Playstation 3, DLNA TVs etc

http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/media-connect-for-dlna-upnp/id335036887?mt=8


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
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Phil Leigh
2011-09-06 18:22:34 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;655983 Wrote:
> yes that maybe true, but Persona Software are more than happy that Apple
> feel that way :-)
>
> directly stream your iPod music to all your DLNA certified devices
> around the home - this includes XBox 360, Playstation 3, DLNA TVs etc
>
> http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/media-connect-for-dlna-upnp/id335036887?mt=8

Yawn - why would I want to do that?
I can access my SBS library on Touch, Boom and Radio... And I can play
it all on the 4 computers in the house.. And my iPad... And across the
Internet from anywhere in the world...
The only DLNA device I have is my Popcorn Hour... And that's for
movies! I don't want music on my Wii.
My house is crammed with gadgets - and yet I have no need / use for
DLNA.
YMMV.


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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MrSinatra
2011-09-06 19:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;655987 Wrote:
> Yawn - why would I want to do that?
> I can access my SBS library on Touch, Boom and Radio... And I can play
> it all on the 4 computers in the house.. And my iPad... And across the
> Internet from anywhere in the world...
> The only DLNA device I have is my Popcorn Hour... And that's for
> movies! I don't want music on my Wii.
> My house is crammed with gadgets - and yet I have no need / use for
> DLNA.
> YMMV.

Phil, its that kind of thinking that would kill the product. luckily,
they realize this, and will put upnp/dlna into LMS. if well
implemented, that can only be healthy for the product.


--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & droid (my home) / duet & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.5b -
win7 ie9 & xp pro sp3 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 -
d-link dir-655 - 49k+ mp3/flac
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
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pcourtney
2011-09-06 19:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;655987 Wrote:
> Yawn - why would I want to do that?

because it is not about you Phil, you have a NAS and SBS !

it's a bigger market that Logitech are missing out on..... seriously
Logitech are missing the whole point, they should be sucking up to
every Media server software company there is, they should not care
whether the punter wants to use Apple iOS, Microsoft, Linux, droid, who
cares, let the software guys have that bunfight, no what Logitech are
good at is they have distribution in 120 countries around the world,
and access to low cost manufacturing, and serious clout when it comes
to BOM buying (part etc)

What Logitech should be doing is buying InXtron before anyone else
does

http://www.inxtron.com/201107071294/2011/world-first-dlna-certified-landisk

but they don't have the brains at HQ to do that IMHO


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
SBS Remote Control via an iPad2 and Logitech app
Squeezebox Duet Receivers WiFi Connected x 3
Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 Headphone Amps x 3
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pcourtney
2011-09-06 16:45:39 UTC
Permalink
mherger;654873 Wrote:
> Nicolas - what DLNA server are you using? Does it provide all the
> features you'd want? - Michael

Hi Michael,
I have been using Asset from dbPoweramp, fabulous kit, and working very
well in my apartment, shame that I cannot use Squeezebox Duet with the
Asset system

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/asset-upnp-dlna.htm


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
SBS Remote Control via an iPad2 and Logitech app
Squeezebox Duet Receivers WiFi Connected x 3
Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 Headphone Amps x 3
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Phil Leigh
2011-09-06 18:29:51 UTC
Permalink
pcourtney;655960 Wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> I have been using Asset from dbPoweramp, fabulous software running on
> top of a simple Windows server, working very well in my apartment,
> shame that I cannot use Squeezebox Duet players with the Asset system
>
> http://www.dbpoweramp.com/asset-upnp-dlna.htm
>
> just waiting to add a couple of Sonata's - job done :-) simples
> :-)
>
> http://www.harbar.net/archive/2011/07/20/334.aspx
>
> Spencer is the type of guy Logitech should be paying to spend a day at
> Logitech HQ,
> he was an existing Duet Receiver owner, but felt that it was not
> performing at its best
>
> http://www.harbar.net/articles/About.aspx

Are we expected to take this guy seriously?... He ditched an SB for a
bunch of very strangely argued reasons and then gets a Sonata that
can't do gapless playback... And he calls himself a "muso" - pah!


--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker & Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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pcourtney
2011-09-06 19:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Phil Leigh;655993 Wrote:
> Are we expected to take this guy seriously?... He ditched an SB for a
> bunch of very strangely argued reasons and then gets a Sonata that
> can't do gapless playback... And he calls himself a "muso" - pah!

Cambridge Audio already have gapless working, should be released soon
to it's customer base, and a number of other things fixed due to the
feedback it has had from early adopters, don't be so hard on the guy
Phil, he is only a normal chap, like me and thousands of others, we are
not super intelligent and knowledgeable like you.


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
SBS Remote Control via an iPad2 and Logitech app
Squeezebox Duet Receivers WiFi Connected x 3
Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 Headphone Amps x 3
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bits
2011-09-02 11:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Simple

Users want:
-easy access to their media files in multiple places. eg a Samsung 3d
TV in their lounge, a PS3 on an older TV in the games room, a Revue in
the bedroom, a Squeezebox under the pergola in the backyard, an Android
phone in their pocket. All their files available everywhere they want
them.
-to make this access as simple as possible eg a common interface to all
these random devices from random vendors that they have collected over
time

UPnP is currently the answer to the above.
Squeezebox is currently a propriety, audio only solution. While very
powerful, it doesn't integrate well with other unrelated devices.


Design:
For all the above you need a server. It makes zero sense for any of the
listed clients to be the server. The clients tend to be "hardware" based
players.
They suffer from numerous issues
-they are simplified and not running complex software(most the time
simply not capable of running complex software)
-they have dedicated tasks which once finished with the user will turn
the device off independently of other devices needs
-they do not have a lot of spare horsepower because users want low cost
devices and low power usage for the purpose bought task
-the user doesn't want to buy a "server" every time they purchase a new
player. Eg PS3, Samsung TV, Android phone, Revue, Squeezebox, no one
wants to buy 5 servers, they want 5 players.

The logical answer is the thing that happens right now, it is a PC or
NAS server.


Solution:
-The customer buys one server or uses an existing PC as one. Built for
this task. A complex machine running a common OS like Windows, Linux or
OSX which is then capable of running 1 of any number of possible UPnP
servers. The brain is always going to be the most complex part.
-The customer buys whatever players/controllers they like. Built for
this task. A simple device capable of very little to keep things simple
for day to day use by the user, to keep cost and power use low.


Future:
-The UPnP server will move to wherever the users media is. The media is
currently local for most users. As internet speeds and service providers
cater for hosting all the users media, the media and UPnP server will
move to the cloud.
-Logitech will have good experience with UPnP server technology and
will be able to offer hosted UPnP services easily.
-Only once this move happens will the local UPnP server not be a core
part of the solution.


PS:
-Logitech can't sell a product as the best thing in the world with a
little asterisks saying Logitech can not guarantee the device will
work. They cant depend on 3rd party software to support their players.
Logitech can't support the customer if there is any bugs in that
software. What if that software becomes unavailable or unexpectedly
blocks their product. What if that software was to damage a users
device after Logitech pointed their users towards that software?
It is also commercial suicide to send your customer to another company
for things you should have delivered yourself. The other company would
be foolish to not just sell a directly competing product with free
customer leads given by Logitech themselves.
-Logitech need to develop a UPnP server in order to sell devices like
the Revue
-Logitech need to develop a UPnP server for future products based on
UPnP server.


--
bits
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pcourtney
2011-09-06 16:50:12 UTC
Permalink
bits;654890 Wrote:
> Simple
>
> Users want:
> -easy access to their media files in multiple places. eg a Samsung 3d
> TV in their lounge, a PS3 on an older TV in the games room, a Revue in
> the bedroom, an Android phone in their pocket, a LG fridge in the
> kitchen. All their files available everywhere they want them.
> -to make this access as simple as possible eg a common interface to all
> these random devices from random vendors that they have collected over
> time
>
> UPnP is currently the answer to the above.
> Squeezebox is currently a propriety, audio only solution. While very
> powerful, it doesn't integrate well with other unrelated devices.
>
>
> Design:
> For all the above you need a server. It makes zero sense for any of the
> listed clients to be the server. The clients tend to be "hardware" based
> players.
> They suffer from numerous issues
> -they are simplified and not running complex software(most the time
> simply not capable of running complex software)
> -they have dedicated tasks which once finished with the user will turn
> the device off independently of other devices needs
> -they do not have a lot of spare horsepower because users want low cost
> devices and low power usage for the purpose bought task
> -the user doesn't want to buy a "server" every time they purchase a new
> player. Eg PS3, Samsung TV, Android phone, Revue, Squeezebox, no one
> wants to buy 5 servers, they want 5 players.
> -the server needs to be independent of all players. Players should be
> easily replaceable without effecting other players on the network. All
> files should exist in one common spot on the network.
>
> The logical answer is the thing that happens right now, it is a PC or
> NAS server.
>
>
> Solution:
> -The customer buys one server or uses an existing PC as one. Built for
> this task. A complex machine running a common OS like Windows, Linux or
> OSX which is then capable of running 1 of any number of possible UPnP
> servers. The brain is always going to be the most complex part.
> -The customer buys whatever players/controllers they like(Logitech hope
> you pick a whole heap of their devices). Built for this task. A simple
> device capable of very little to keep things simple for day to day use
> by the user, to keep cost and power use low.
>
>
> Future:
> -The UPnP server will move to wherever the users media is. The media is
> currently local for most users. As internet speeds and service providers
> cater for hosting all the users media, the media and UPnP server will
> move to the cloud.
> -Logitech will have good experience with UPnP server technology and
> will be able to offer hosted UPnP services easily.
> -Only once this move happens will the local UPnP server not be a core
> part of the solution.
>
>
> PS:
> -Logitech can't sell a product as the best thing in the world with a
> little asterisks saying Logitech can not guarantee the device will
> work. They cant depend on 3rd party software to support their players.
> Logitech can't support the customer if there is any bugs in that
> software. What if that software becomes unavailable or unexpectedly
> blocks their product. What if that software was to damage a users
> device after Logitech pointed their users towards that software?
> It is also commercial suicide to send your customer to another company
> for things you should have delivered yourself. The other company would
> be foolish to not just sell a directly competing product with free
> customer leads given by Logitech themselves.
> -Logitech need to develop a UPnP server in order to sell devices like
> the Revue
> -Logitech need to develop a UPnP server for future products based on
> UPnP server.
> -If Logitech wanted they could offer LMS free if a Logitech player
> authenticates to the server often(the player acts as the "license") and
> offer it for a fee to all other users.

+1 great post - that is how it should be, simples !


--
pcourtney

Infrant ReadyNAS 1000S Sparc CPU 512mb and SBS 7.6.1
SBS Remote Control via an iPad2 and Logitech app
Squeezebox Duet Receivers WiFi Connected x 3
Musical Fidelity X-CAN v2 Headphone Amps x 3
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